Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
We did the same thing in Vietnam and Beirut with the New Jersey.
I know. Amazing. The cost of re-equipping the New Jersey was astronomical. Many modern ships, with more collective firepower, could have been built for the money.
I believe one difference was the number of 5" guns as the South Dakota was more or less a flagship and from what I remember had 2 less 5" mounts (16 vs 20 five inch guns) as the other three South Dakota class ships all had the 20 five inch guns.
Yup, that's one. The other is the location of the mainmast. On the Indiana, Massachusetts and Alabama the mainmast was attached to the rear of the stack. On the South Dakota it was a bit further aft, and had a low tripod at its base.
As for the rest, I think I'd better hush and allow us to return to the original topic of the thread.
The Iowa class could accurately hit ships beyond the horizon at will compared to the Yamato which didn't have any type of radar at all. The fire control for the main guns was never updated when the BB's where brought back because they really couldn't improve on the accuracy of it.
The Iowa class could accurately hit ships beyond the horizon at will compared to the Yamato which didn't have any type of radar at all. The fire control for the main guns was never updated when the BB's where brought back because they really couldn't improve on the accuracy of it.
I'm pretty certain (but at the moment I cannot find any reference to either affirm or refute this) that the North Carolina-class, South Dakota-class and Iowa-class had the same Mark 38 fire control system that included the Mark 7 -- and later the Mark 8 -- Fire Control Radar.
I'm pretty certain (but at the moment I cannot find any reference to either affirm or refute this) that the North Carolina-class, South Dakota-class and Iowa-class had the same Mark 38 fire control system that included the Mark 7 -- and later the Mark 8 -- Fire Control Radar.
I think you are right on this... The accuracy of the big guns was without peer, they could hit 20 miles plus on the first salvo.
I think you are right on this... The accuracy of the big guns was without peer, they could hit 20 miles plus on the first salvo.
Well, maybe not "hit", exactly, but a first-salvo close-straddle was almost as good! That's what USS Washington did to the Kongo-class battleship -- either Kirishima or Hiei, the records aren't clear* -- on the night of 13-14 November 1942. Until those 16-inch shells landed, the Japanese didn't even know the Washington was there.
-- Nighteyes
* NOTE: Kirishima and Hiei were virtually identical. Both were there, and both sank in a 30-hour period.
Well, maybe not "hit", exactly, but a first-salvo close-straddle was almost as good! That's what USS Washington did to the Kongo-class battleship -- either Kirishima or Hiei, the records aren't clear* -- on the night of 13-14 November 1942. Until those 16-inch shells landed, the Japanese didn't even know the Washington was there.
-- Nighteyes
* NOTE: Kirishima and Hiei were virtually identical. Both were there, and both sank in a 30-hour period.
Yes it was the Kirishima the USS Washington sunk. The Hiei was sunk in a battle with cruisers. Ron
Yes it was the Kirishima the USS Washington sunk. The Hiei was sunk in a battle with cruisers. Ron
I have seen it reported both ways, so its really difficult to be certain which "twin" was sunk by what force.
My barber for 29 years was a portside 5-inch AAA gunner aboard the USS Portland during said cruiser battle. Those were single-mount, unshielded 5-inch/25's. He was out in the open, on the side nearest the Japanese battleship, with a "ringside seat". He was certain it was Kirishima that they seriously damaged, so that it sank after daylight. If he (and about half the records I have reviewed) is correct, Washington surprised and sank Hiei the following night.
In the long run it doesn't matter. They both sank into the depths of Ironbottom Sound in a timespan of about 30 hours.
Also, as mentioned earlier, the lack of fire control is why I personally picked either Bismarck or Iowa in a theoretical duel. Yamato's one chance for victory against either of those ships is scoring a lucky hit at distance. However, Yamato has a very low chance of doing it relative to the other two. At the end of the day in a battleship engagement it all comes down to which ship neuters the other first by knocking out fire control, bridge, etc. The other ships have a much greater chance of doing that than Yamato.
.
The Bismarck's radar wave length is 83 cm, that's not enough to perform blindfire like the USS Iowa does. You need at least wave length of 10cm to before blindfire with fire controls. Also one volley with the Bismarck's main cannons would disable its radar systems.
If the Bismarck does have better fire control, its not going to be much better to make a major difference compared to the Yamato.
The Bismarck is based on WW1 designs hardly "modern" by 1940s standards.
Last edited by Setsurinvich; 01-03-2024 at 08:05 PM..
The Bismarck's radar wave length is 83 cm, that's not enough to perform blindfire like the USS Iowa does. You need at least wave length of 10cm to before blindfire with fire controls. Also one volley with the Bismarck's main cannons would disable its radar systems.
If the Bismarck does have better fire control, its not going to be much better to make a major difference compared to the Yamato.
The Bismarck is based on WW1 designs hardly "modern" by 1940s standards.
Good point. I find that many people and documentaries tend to exaggerate the Bismarck class battleships (Bismarck and Tirpitz) calling them the biggest battleships of WW2.
In reality, the Bismarcks are good ships but are roughly equal to the other modern era battleships of the 1930s and 1940s - the 10 American "fast battleships", the 5 British King George V class (and later HMSVanguard) plus some French and Italian battleships. You can make an argument about which class is best; the German ships were known for quality, the Italian ships were known for their speed and the Americans for all around quality, especially the 4 Iowa class. But they are all roughly similar.
The Yamato class (Yamato and Musashi) is different though. The Japanese knew they could not compete with the USA and Britain in numbers so they decided to build bigger and stronger. IJN Yamato had 18 inch guns compared to the typical 14 and 16 inch of the other countries (each inch makes a big difference in striking power) plus heavy armor.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
That's what USS Washington did to the Kongo-class battleship -- either Kirishima or Hiei, the records aren't clear* -- on the night of 13-14 November 1942. Until those 16-inch shells landed, the Japanese didn't even know the Washington was there.
