Who was worse/scarier: Stalin or Hitler (1980s, slave, origin)
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Show me one country where everyone has starved.
Here is a chart showing the death rate from malnutrition, by country. MALNUTRITION DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY
The worst 43 are all capitalist countries, with more deaths per capita from malnutrition than North Korea. Peru has three times the per capita GDP of North Korea, but Peruvians are at greater risk of starvation than North Koreans, while rich Peruvians eat well. Cuba and Vietnam are tied with Japan, and better than the USA. China is tied with Denmark.
The issue isn't death rates in and around this time period. The issue is the socialist/communist countries death rates at the time Stalin and Hitler were in power. After all, this is what the thread is about.
Stalin used systematic starvation to control large groups of people. And to say Russia was anything but socialist/communist well, would be laughable?
Hitler also used starvation in concentration and death camps as a means to control his "problems" too. Germany was, of course and still is, very socialist.
Grandstander, those were not Stalin's "goals" - those were his means of achieving his goals.
But - gotcha.
.
You give Stalin points for having better goals than Hitler, then when I identify a really bad goal, such as Stalin sending innocent people to their death or extended wretched captivity because he thought there might be a chance that one day they may act against him...and that is against him..not against socialism (which is the goal you respect)..you rule that as justified "means.
I am starting to view your position here as akin to that of an advocate...a lawyer, a salesman, a politician...those people who make a living advancing a cause and considering any tactic acceptable as long as it leads to the triumph of the cause....a sale, a desired verdict, an election.
In short, no matter what, you will excuse Stalin's homicidal behavior.
You give Stalin points for having better goals than Hitler, then when I identify a really bad goal, such as Stalin sending innocent people to their death or extended wretched captivity because he thought there might be a chance that one day they may act against him...and that is against him..not against socialism (which is the goal you respect)..you rule that as justified "means.
I am starting to view your position here as akin to that of an advocate...a lawyer, a salesman, a politician...those people who make a living advancing a cause and considering any tactic acceptable as long as it leads to the triumph of the cause....a sale, a desired verdict, an election.
In short, no matter what, you will excuse Stalin's homicidal behavior.
EXACTLY.
I wonder why some of the posters here don't simply declare themselves as communists? You believe in communism, despise democracy and civil liberties, believe that goals justify the means and that's OK. You have a right to your own views, after all we live in a democracy. But if instead you defend communism from pretended position of democracy and freedom, it simply looks pathetic and fake as communism and communist leaders had nothing to do with democracy and civil liberties. Communist leaders were all bloody tyrants. Yes, all of them.
I for one don't believe Stalin goal's were any better than Hitler's and from a perspective of a innocent men getting shot in the back of his/her head it really does not matter what these goals were.
You give Stalin points for having better goals than Hitler, then when I identify a really bad goal, such as Stalin sending innocent people to their death or extended wretched captivity because he thought there might be a chance that one day they may act against him...and that is against him..not against socialism (which is the goal you respect)..you rule that as justified "means.
I am not sure whether Stalin ever separated someone acting against "him" personally vs against his grand ideas. ( Could Hitler separate such thing in his own mind? I don't think so, because his ideas, his vision were apparently inseparable from who he was.)
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I am starting to view your position here as akin to that of an advocate...a lawyer, a salesman, a politician...those people who make a living advancing a cause and considering any tactic acceptable as long as it leads to the triumph of the cause....a sale, a desired verdict, an election.
Again - I am not sure what "selling" means in this case, but I definitely see the difference in how Russians approach this subject ( not universally of course) vs. how Americans approach this subject, and that's what I wanted to point at, because often it's not understood why exactly Russians vote for Stalin as "most popular leader of the country," while Americans consider him just the bloody murderer.
Another thing - I wouldn't consider myself a "politician" - I look at things rather from theological point of view and I don't have any particular political ideas of my own, really...
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In short, no matter what, you will excuse Stalin's homicidal behavior.
This is not what the question was - it was a comparison between Hitler and Stalin, who was worse/scarier.
I merely pointed at the reason why I consider Hitler worse/scarier than Stalin.
Some people ( according to the poll) think the other way around. Does it mean that they advocate for Hitler?
I mean that should be the conclusion then, no?
I wonder why some of the posters here don't simply declare themselves as communists?
Because from everything I observed in life, Communism is something that is more relevant to human nature itself rather than to social organization of the society.
I mean you can organize the society where "everyone works according to their abilities and everyone receives according to their needs," - that's what definition of communism really is, but while one can define what "abilities" are - how the "needs" can be exactly defined?
So keeping this in mind, there was no "communism" in Russia ever, but whatever system there was there - no, I could never endorse it, until I saw what came AFTER it. NOW it really got me thinking about the past, the future and the rest..
I am not sure whether Stalin ever separated someone acting against "him" personally vs against his grand ideas. ( Could Hitler separate such thing in his own mind? I don't think so, because his ideas, his vision were apparently inseparable from who he was.)
You are making these criminals into some beings with higher conciense. Of course they could separate their ideas from personal grudges. Hitler ordered killing of "Mein Kampf" ghost writer simply because they kbnew too much about the creative process and Stalin killed plenty of people who simply challenged him or he flet became too powerful. Neither Hitler nor Stalin were some "man of idea". LOL
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Originally Posted by erasure
Again - I am not sure what "selling" means in this case, but I definitely see the difference in how Russians approach this subject ( not universally of course) vs. how Americans approach this subject, and that's what I wanted to point at, because often it's not understood why exactly Russians vote for Stalin as "most popular leader of the country," while Americans consider him just the bloody murderer.
You simply fail to acknowledge the fact that not just Americans but the entire free world sees Stalin as a murderous bastard while Russians cherish his memories simply because he made them feel powerful for a short while.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Another thing - I wouldn't consider myself a "politician" - I look at things rather from theological point of view and I don't have any particular political ideas of my own, really...
Theological? I did not know you were that religious
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Originally Posted by erasure
This is not what the question was - it was a comparison between Hitler and Stalin, who was worse/scarier.
I merely pointed at the reason why I consider Hitler worse/scarier than Stalin.
Some people ( according to the poll) think the other way around. Does it mean that they advocate for Hitler?
I mean that should be the conclusion then, no?
I really don't care who is worse, Hitler or Stalin, at their level of evil there is not much room for gradation.
Just dont pretend batiushka Stalin was any different than Hitler.
You are making these criminals into some beings with higher conciense.
No, just pointing that they definitely represented two different ideas and it's silly to deny it, to say the least.
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You simply fail to acknowledge the fact that not just Americans but the entire free world sees Stalin as a murderous bastard
Then either Russians ( who should condemn Stalin first of all,) are completely clueless ( which is hard to believe by now,) or the "free world" doesn't know much. ( Knowing American education in schools as far as world history goes I'd guess this possibility.)
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while Russians cherish his memories simply because he made them feel powerful for a short while.
But he was just a "murderous bastard" - why would "murderous bastard" make feel anyone powerful?
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Theological? I did not know you were that religious
"That" religious as in what?
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I really don't care who is worse, Hitler or Stalin,
Then why are you participating in this thread, since this is the main question of it?
Please quite spamming, incessantly pushing your own agenda.
No, just pointing that they definitely represented two different ideas and it's silly to deny it, to say the least.
Its silly to assume that any difference in ideology between Hitler and Stalin made any difference to victims of these two. Did their victims really care in what name were they shot in the back of their heads?
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Originally Posted by erasure
Then either Russians ( who should condemn Stalin first of all,) are completely clueless ( which is hard to believe by now,) or the "free world" doesn't know much. ( Knowing American education in schools as far as world history goes I'd guess this possibility.)
What about English, French or Dutch schools? Do you propose that the world has somehow false idea about Stalin? Maybe Russians should teach us the truth about their great leader? Enlighten us, please. Can't wait
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Originally Posted by erasure
But he was just a "murderous bastard" - why would "murderous bastard" make feel anyone powerful?
Because he needed plenty of smaller caliber bastards to carry out his murderous orders...
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Originally Posted by erasure
Then why are you participating in this thread, since this is the main question of it?
Please quite spamming, incessantly pushing your own agenda.
Spamming? What agenda? In history books of the free world Stalin is unequivocally described as a murderous tyrant. Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin
Why are YOU pushing your communist agenda here?
Why spam American forums with Soviet propaganda about Stalin?
Because from everything I observed in life, Communism is something that is more relevant to human nature itself rather than to social organization of the society.
I mean you can organize the society where "everyone works according to their abilities and everyone receives according to their needs," - that's what definition of communism really is, but while one can define what "abilities" are - how the "needs" can be exactly defined?
So keeping this in mind, there was no "communism" in Russia ever, but whatever system there was there - no, I could never endorse it, until I saw what came AFTER it. NOW it really got me thinking about the past, the future and the rest..
That's because you simply fail to acknowledge that Russia is still being led by its soviet elite: after all Vladimir Putin was a colonel in KGB and they didn't make just anybody a colonel in a dreaded KGB. He must have been a loyal and trusted communist to get that far. Just like Yuri Andropov before him.
Russia today is simply Soviet Union mark II. In a few years it will become economically stronger and politically regress to what it was before Gorbachev and Perestroika. Mark my words, comrade. I bet you'll like it.
Last edited by rebel12; 11-18-2012 at 05:29 PM..
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