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Old 12-05-2010, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwruckman View Post
A good item would be a discussion of what happened to a Soviet Golf 2 class submarine designated K-129 operating near the Hawaian Islands on March 7, 1968? It may be one of the most frightening stories of the long battle fought in the shadows between the US and USSR.
Well, what did happen? Is it all still classified? Can you provide a link? Can you summarize it for us? I am very curious.
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Maryland about 20 miles NW of DC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Well, what did happen? Is it all still classified? Can you provide a link? Can you summarize it for us? I am very curious.

The reason I brought the subject up is a book published in 2005 by Kenneth Sewell and Clint Richmond called "Red Star Rogue: The Untold Story of a Soviet Submarine's Nuclear Strike Attempt on the U.S." K-129 was a diesel-electric boat (Golf-class) modified by the Soviets to carry 3 submarine launched ballistic missiles. K-129 operated out of the Rybachiysubmarine base on the Pacific Ocean on the Kamchatka Pennisula. The book discusses the the final voyage of K-129 which left Rybachiy in Fedruary 1968 until its sinking on March 7 ,1968 during an attempted launch of an SSN-5 Serb SLBM equpped with a thermonuclear weapon. Given the range of the missile and its location when it sank the most likely target was Pearl Harbor and the city of Honolulu. The book gives some factual information as to why this radical conclusion is not unreasonable given the international situation in 1968. A hypothesis of a Soviet attempt to trick the USA into blaming the Chinese for this attack which fortunately didn't come to pass is presented. The book also discusses the possible existence of a hardline clique in the Soviet leadership lead by Mikhail Suslov and Yuri Andropov that may have organized this attempted assualt on the USA in an attempt to provoke a nuclear assault on Mao's China by the Americans who would have been outraged by the deaths of hundreds of thousands of our people in a sneak attack. The attack would weaken America and eliminate Mao's China which could then be occupied by the Soviets. The sinking of the K-129 might have provoked a tit-for-tat attack on a American Submarine the USS Scorpion later that year. K-129 also became the target for one of the most curious projects of the Cold War because the US developed the means to raise this boat from the floor of the Pacific Ocean. This CIA project was code named "Jennifer" was started by the Nixon Administration and saw the contruction of a ship called the Glomar Explorer by the Hughes Summa Corporation. The Glomar Explorer was apparently used in 1975 to recover most if not all of the K-129 including at least one of its nuclear tipped SLBMs, its code books and decoding equipment and other items of national security interest. In the 1990s some details of what we knew about K-129 were given to the Russians in a program to deal with MIAs and other Cold War incidents. Apparently we returned the ship's bell from K-129 along with some personnel dairies and items of the K-129 crew. These spoke volumes to the Russians and make a convincing case that we recovered most if not all of the K-129 not just a few pieces as previously admitted by the US government. Project Jennifer was a sucess.
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Old 12-06-2010, 03:47 PM
 
Location: New Orleans, LA
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The Typhoon Class is my most favorite sub class too.

Here's The Hunt For Red October Opening Scene(although the sub in the movie is not overall the same as the real life Typhoon, but I look at it as the "new" Typhoon along with it's "Silent Drive");


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWPBr4L1eyE
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Old 12-06-2010, 03:53 PM
 
Location: New Orleans, LA
1,809 posts, read 5,391,587 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwruckman View Post
The reason I brought the subject up is a book published in 2005 by Kenneth Sewell and Clint Richmond called "Red Star Rogue: The Untold Story of a Soviet Submarine's Nuclear Strike Attempt on the U.S." K-129 was a diesel-electric boat (Golf-class) modified by the Soviets to carry 3 submarine launched ballistic missiles. K-129 operated out of the Rybachiysubmarine base on the Pacific Ocean on the Kamchatka Pennisula. The book discusses the the final voyage of K-129 which left Rybachiy in Fedruary 1968 until its sinking on March 7 ,1968 during an attempted launch of an SSN-5 Serb SLBM equpped with a thermonuclear weapon. Given the range of the missile and its location when it sank the most likely target was Pearl Harbor and the city of Honolulu. The book gives some factual information as to why this radical conclusion is not unreasonable given the international situation in 1968. A hypothesis of a Soviet attempt to trick the USA into blaming the Chinese for this attack which fortunately didn't come to pass is presented. The book also discusses the possible existence of a hardline clique in the Soviet leadership lead by Mikhail Suslov and Yuri Andropov that may have organized this attempted assualt on the USA in an attempt to provoke a nuclear assault on Mao's China by the Americans who would have been outraged by the deaths of hundreds of thousands of our people in a sneak attack. The attack would weaken America and eliminate Mao's China which could then be occupied by the Soviets. The sinking of the K-129 might have provoked a tit-for-tat attack on a American Submarine the USS Scorpion later that year. K-129 also became the target for one of the most curious projects of the Cold War because the US developed the means to raise this boat from the floor of the Pacific Ocean. This CIA project was code named "Jennifer" was started by the Nixon Administration and saw the contruction of a ship called the Glomar Explorer by the Hughes Summa Corporation. The Glomar Explorer was apparently used in 1975 to recover most if not all of the K-129 including at least one of its nuclear tipped SLBMs, its code books and decoding equipment and other items of national security interest. In the 1990s some details of what we knew about K-129 were given to the Russians in a program to deal with MIAs and other Cold War incidents. Apparently we returned the ship's bell from K-129 along with some personnel dairies and items of the K-129 crew. These spoke volumes to the Russians and make a convincing case that we recovered most if not all of the K-129 not just a few pieces as previously admitted by the US government. Project Jennifer was a sucess.
Interesting story.

Here's the K-129;



http://www.redstarrogue.com/images/t648%5B1%5D.jpg (broken link)

http://www.redstarrogue.com/images/Real%20K-129.jpg (broken link)





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Old 12-06-2010, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Maryland about 20 miles NW of DC
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I know what the NY Times and other open sources say about the K-129 and what the government calls Project Azorian rather than "Jennifer". The Sewell book sounds a little bit like "The Hunt for Red October" but truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. I think there was something very odd about the atempt to recover the wreckage of K-129 and part of the book weaves quite a tale of intrigue
orchetrated by Henry Kissinger who used the incident as a possible tool to open US relations with China, get us out of Vietnam and get the Soviets to reign in the arms race. A lot of stuff happened between 1968 and 1972. Was there a dark secret behind a lot of it?
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:34 PM
 
Location: San Diego CA
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Really enjoyed this thread. I was visiting the Maritime Museum here recently and one of the ships I went through was the B-39, a Russian "Foxtrot" class sub. I couldn't believe how primitive the crew accommodations were, even for the Captain.
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Old 05-30-2012, 01:15 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Excellent pics.

In general, I've viewed the Russian habit to make things functional, cheap but not always safe to work best for things like tanks and rifles but less so for things like Subs and capital ships.

Curious how their safety track-record stands up to other modern navies over the past. I know the US has lost a few subs and the Russians too.
With regard to the Sharks (Typhoon) this is the most secure and reliable boat in the world. It has all of the systems are duplicated. (in the flesh until reactors) And she created the so - two boats in the same housing. if the sink half of the boat, she could no obstacles to continue its work
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Old 05-30-2012, 01:38 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Interesting recap of the sinking of the Kursk can be found in Democratic Breakdown and the Decline of the Russian Military (2006) by Zoltan Barany. Basically the Russians had a lot of safety problems such as inadequate training and maintenance. An accidental explosion inside the Kursk resulted in its sinking, which was following by massive bungling, denials, cover-ups, and plain lies, including the lie that a collision with a NATO warship had caused the sinking. This incident occurred early in the first term of President Putin.
With regard to the Kursk he was torpedoed by a torpedo with an American submarine. I have a relative on it served and was at her to leave. The official version of a complete nonsense, it was the policy (and Putin Covered together with the American President this incident.) Immediately after the catastrophe arrived Your Director of The CIA in Moscow (it is the first fact He came to agree) the second fact is the interest of America to torpedo a Flurry of it is on the Kursk should be show China (and then sell them) America was not profitable, because if China has a new super torpedo has no analogues in the world, then America will lose dominance in the The Pacific ocean. 3 fact. The first compartment cut off under the water to the people had no issues. 4 in the Body of the vessel remained all exactly(though sawing part of) a clear trace of the American torpedo (hole which makes it one of the types of American missiles. 5 then they show on national geographic's complete nonsense. The reason why I know these boats and we have such a boat and no problems. And I know the device of these boats (the one that was shown on this channel is nonsense there is shown the device boats of world war 2. This crew Was When the Kamchatka. It was all a political game, in which the Americans do not stand nerves. There are a true French film about the Kursk. Have you it is Forbidden to His and we Have banned. There irrefutable facts
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Old 05-30-2012, 10:56 AM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,521,339 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast View Post
With regard to the Kursk he was torpedoed by a torpedo with an American submarine. I have a relative on it served and was at her to leave. The official version of a complete nonsense, it was the policy (and Putin Covered together with the American President this incident.) Immediately after the catastrophe arrived Your Director of The CIA in Moscow (it is the first fact He came to agree) the second fact is the interest of America to torpedo a Flurry of it is on the Kursk should be show China (and then sell them) America was not profitable, because if China has a new super torpedo has no analogues in the world, then America will lose dominance in the The Pacific ocean. 3 fact. The first compartment cut off under the water to the people had no issues. 4 in the Body of the vessel remained all exactly(though sawing part of) a clear trace of the American torpedo (hole which makes it one of the types of American missiles. 5 then they show on national geographic's complete nonsense. The reason why I know these boats and we have such a boat and no problems. And I know the device of these boats (the one that was shown on this channel is nonsense there is shown the device boats of world war 2. This crew Was When the Kamchatka. It was all a political game, in which the Americans do not stand nerves. There are a true French film about the Kursk. Have you it is Forbidden to His and we Have banned. There irrefutable facts
No, they are actually pretty refutable. There are at least two other versions propagated by conspiracy theorists on what happened to the Kursk...

Theory 1: Is pretty much what you stated. The Chinese wanted to buy VA-111 Shkval torpedos (fastest torpedos in the world) and two Chinese admirals were present at the fleet exercise where dummy torpedos were to be fired by Kursk at the battlecruiser Peter the Great. Since the Shkval's use a volatile mix of 1.5 tonnes of peroxide and kerosene, there were concerns over "accidents" related to them (NATO attempted to develop these types of torpedos in the 1950's, but abandoned them when a British submarine sank in similar circumstance to the official story of Kursk). To make sure the "accident" happened, a US Los Angeles class sub, either the Memphis or Toledo fired a Mk48 torpedo at the Kursk and sunk it.

This event was later covered up by the US and Russian governments. The US forgave Russian debt, Putin buried the real cause of the accident and the one part you missed is that Putin pardoned the US spy Edumnd Pope who had been caught stealing research on the Shkval torpedos.

What is often missing from this "theory" is that the Chinese went on to buy Shkval torpedos anyway and they are also owned by many other world navies. The Russians refuse to export the most advanced models, instead selling a stripped down "dumber" version to other world navies. Seems like a lot to go through to attempt to make the Chinese not buy a torpedo considering they are buying entire fleets of Russian subs.

Theory 2: This can really be split into two parts and is the theory more commonly cited.

A: The Memphis and Toledo were shadowing the exercise when the Toledo accidentally bumped into the Kursk. The resulting bump set off an explosion in the forward torpedo room that sank Kursk. The damaged Toledo then made it's way to the naval base at Haakonsvern Norway for emergency repairs before heading to Southampton in Britain where more extensive repairs were conducted. (***This theory is the one put forward in the French documentary that was cited by the poster, not the theory of American's torpedoing the Kursk.)

B: Same as above, but after Toledo bumps Kursk and begins to withdrawal covered by Memphis; Memphis detects Kursk opening her torpedo doors. Fearing that Kursk was preparing to fire on Toledo, Memphis fires on Kursk and sinks her. Toledo then makes its way to Norway for emergency repairs and then onto Britain.

The ending is pretty much the same to either one. The US is embarassed by the incident and Putin needs American financial support and wants to suppress the hardliners looking for retribution. Clinton doesn't want this incident to hurt his Presidency or Gore's campaign. Putin agrees to cover it up in exchange for the US forgiving some Russian debt and Putin tosses in the pardon of the spy as well.

Those are the main theories that get floated around. Now, the official account would be that the propellant used in the Kursk's torpedos is unstable. Evidence for this ties back to NATO's own issues and a lost sub using the same kind of propellant. Do to the extremely low standard of maintenance and support in the Russian Navy at the time, rusted lines used to fuel the torepdos fail and ignite an explosion in the forward compartment. This explosion then ignites the warheads on the other torpedos which sets off the main explosion and dooms the ship.

The explosions are recorded by both Memphis and Toledo operating nearby as well as various seismic monitoring stations. All of the sounds of the resulting explosions are all too large to have been caused by a Mk48 torpedo, which has a very precise sound signature. Toledo having been the closest ship to the explosion is ordered to port in Norway (closest NATO port that could dock her) for an immediate debriefing before continuing on to it's planned stop in Southampton.

Now, I happen to think that the official count is more believable. Outside of that the possibility of a collision is the next most interesting one, but why cover it up? It's not as if Russian and US subs have never collided before while trailing each other. Even though this resulted in a tragedy, it would have been better for the US to have handled it publicly if we were indeed responsible.
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