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After watching the program last night on the History channel, I think the USA is ripe to be led by someone exactly like Hitler. With the unemployment levels and problems we have with keeping America "American". I wouldn't be surprised if history didn't repeat itself.
Considering the redistribution of U.S. wealth upwards since 1980, the cultivation of religion in politics and distorted "social issues" to fascinate those whose financial and social position have been eroded, the tendency to resort of armed interventions bypassing Congress, etc. and resentment toward the tough task of adjusting to not being King of the Mountain on the international scene we will, I am absolutely certain, see the rapid evolution to a Right Wing government in the U.S.
And it will not require a Hitler....only a charismatic demagogue who can be manipulated and controlled by generous financial support and rewards.
As Mencken said - fascism will come to the U.S. wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.
I agree with John Walmsley, Kevxu, and others that we must exercise continual alertness to dictatorial tendencies, and that this danger will be ever-present in human affairs in all societies, to a greater or lesser extent. However, it may be worth noting that the United States has a longer and more firmly entrenched tradition of limitations on governmental power than the Weimar Republic did. I don't know enough about the details of the Weimar Republic to know if they had a constitutionally enshrined separation of church and state as we do. Can someone enlighten us on this? Tony T.? (Note that Hitler later turned on the churches once he had obtained absolute power).
What bothers me is the very gradual but significant gathering of power to the executive branch of the federal government which has been going on since the Roosevelt (FDR, not Teddy) administration in the 1930's.
Umm no, If obama was that man do you think he would have just allowed THE PEOPLE of this GREAT country to vote his base out of power in the house and drastically reduce the senate majority? No!
I don't know enough about the details of the Weimar Republic to know if they had a constitutionally enshrined separation of church and state as we do. Can someone enlighten us on this? Tony T.? (Note that Hitler later turned on the churches once he had obtained absolute power).
Articles 135 through 141 of the Weimar Republic constitution dealt explicitly with issues of religious freedom within the State. Those freedoms granted to German citizens were effectively no different than the ones enjoyed by people in the United States both then and now. Germans were granted “full freedom of liberty and conscience” and “undisturbed practice of religion” was guaranteed and protected by the State. There was also a specific prohibition against the establishment of a State church (Article 137).
That being said, the Weimar constitution did not set out a strict separation of Church and State. Instead, religious societies formed by mainstream churches (Catholic, Protestant, etc.) were granted a certain privileged status by the State because they were considered “social powers of order”. Churches were permitted to levy taxes on church members and use state tax rolls to help them do so. Churches received extensive state subsidies for use in maintaining church property and buildings. Religious instruction in public schools was not only permissible, but deemed to be a duty of the State to establish and guarantee that it took place. However, the decision as to what was taught and who taught it rested solely with the individual churches, not the State.
So what actually evolved in the Weimar Republic has been described as a “limping” or “balanced” separation of Church and State. Mutual cooperation between the two institutions was thought to be of paramount importance, so the Church retained significant influence in politics and society as a whole. Despite constitutional guarantees to the contrary, this inevitably led to situations where the activities of smaller religious sects were suppressed by the State because they fell outside the mainstream, and were thus, considered a threat. The most notable example of this were the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who were legally persecuted using the “Decree for the Combating of Political Disturbances” issued by President Paul von Hindenburg in 1931.
Interestingly, though the Weimar Republic is but a memory, a part of it still lives on. In 1949, when the Federal Republic of Germany was established, Articles 135 through 141 of the Weimar constitution were incorporated without change into the new Federal constitution.
One can speculate on what events lead to the rise of Hitler and one can speculate whether such a thing is possible in the USA. There is no way to know for certain. I will note that I am skeptical we'd ever get a leader like Hitler here in this country. (and those who want to compare Obama to Hitler should leave this forum and go post in the Politics Forum--stop wasting our time here)
I think what is worth pointing out though is that all nations and civilizations face crises during their years of existence. The way that a people or a nation choose to solve a crisis is generally indicative of their past which includes their political and social traditions.
When Hitler came to power, all the nations of the world were suffering through the Great Depression. The impact that the Great Depression had today is frequently minimized. I actually hear some people talk as though it would "good for this country" if we had to deal with 22% unemployment and a GDP that was over one third less than what it had been. Such people are fools. They have no idea how much an event like the Great Depression can lead to the literal unraveling of a society. They do not understand how critical the leadership of FDR was in terms of guiding America through both the Depression and World War II.
The United States had a tradition of electing its politicians. Freedom was less some abstract idea in our country than it was a concrete reality which took the form of newspaper columns, elections, uninhibited radio broadcasts, and people establishing their own businesses. While we had some black spots in our past (the treatment of minorities and Native Americans) we had by 1932, gotten many things right.
So, it was logical for us to solve a problem like the Great Depression by voting politicians out of office and electing new ones. We did this and despite alot of stumbling on the way, we put together a plan, the New Deal, which ultimately would have extricated ourselves from the Depression. Above all, we faced this crisis without doing things which made the problem worse. We didn't look for scapegoats or demagogues. We didn't demonize entire groups like Jews and maintain they were somehow responsible for what occurred.
In short, a country with little tradition of freedom will deal with a crisis one way. A country with a tradition of freedom will deal with it another way. I think the results pretty much speak for themselves.
Germany's past was much different. Perhaps, because the German people were located in the middle of Europe they had developed a sort of a "warrior mentality" where they were constantly prepared to fight. Worse, the country's only real experience with an elected government came in the few years after World War I during the Weimar Republic. The country had a deep sense of shame and anger over the outcome of World War I. Despite the fact that they had simply been overwhelmed by having to fight Britain, France, and the USA at the same time, the common belief held by the German people during the twenties and thirties was that socialists and Jews had sold their country down the river and that was why they lost World War I. The Weimar Republic was, in fact, despised by many Germans. It was seen as part of this "Jewish/Socialist conspiracy" that had ruined their country. In short, Germans did not look towards democracy or elections to solve problems like the Great Depression. They looked to powerful autocratic leaders and their military to solve problems.
We can hardly congratulate ourselves that a similar take over of government hasn't happened here. We have had our share of political hacks and demagogues, especially in the depths of the Great Depression when people were looking for almost anything that would offer hope. However, in more recent times there is a disturbing trend by politicians in appealing to nebulous "family values," demonizing government as "the problem not the solution," and invoking the name of a supreme power as our exclusive advantage. When a politician starts invoking God and talking about religion, maybe it's time to run for the exits.
I'm more of an optimist than you are John. I think the defense against these kind of politicians is just plain common sense. It would do many people good to read George Orwell's classic "1984". Many politicians today engage in a form of "doublespeak" where they call something by the opposite of what it really is. When government is demonized as some sort of "foreign entity" imposed upon us, we need to remember that in America we elect our government. In short, if there is a "demon" it is us.
Another one of my favorites has to do with this business about claiming "God wants this" or that "God is on our side and against the awful Muslims". When we hear that, it would be good to remind ourselves of what Abraham Lincoln said during the Civil War. He remarked that "we all should stop worrying about whether God is on our side in the war, and instead start worrying about whether we are on God's side".
Was it accurate to start out saying "It was September of 1939, and if you were German, you knew that war with Poland meant you would be at war with Britain and France."
I kind of thought most Germans were far enough out of the loop at that time to not know of the ramifications of this occurring, at least in the first week of September of 1939. I assume then that the BBC was not yet banned from German homes in 1938-39
The footage was excellent, much of the color footage was in high definition, which really gave one the sense of pageantry and omnipresent red, black and white flags almost everywhere. Further historical proof of the dangers of nationalism. It usually means you, the citizen, abdicate to someone in power, who consolidates their power until it is as all encompassing as Hitler or Stalin even though Stalin was far more feared than he was ever trusted by your ordinary Soviet citizen.
I thought the combined effect of all stock footage and little in the way of commentary other than piercing statements detailing Nazi atrocities, throughout the piece to be a damning indictment of those ordinary Germans swept away by the tide of fervent devotion to the Fuhrer.
I'm more of an optimist than you are John. I think the defense against these kind of politicians is just plain common sense. It would do many people good to read George Orwell's classic "1984". Many politicians today engage in a form of "doublespeak" where they call something by the opposite of what it really is. When government is demonized as some sort of "foreign entity" imposed upon us, we need to remember that in America we elect our government. In short, if there is a "demon" it is us.
Another one of my favorites has to do with this business about claiming "God wants this" or that "God is on our side and against the awful Muslims". When we hear that, it would be good to remind ourselves of what Abraham Lincoln said during the Civil War. He remarked that "we all should stop worrying about whether God is on our side in the war, and instead start worrying about whether we are on God's side".
Orwell has been mentioned quite frequently and its worthy of note that the book was called 1984 because it was written in 1948 and he swapped the numbers to make it the future. But he saw the creeping control and the use of technology to make it more effective and could see into the future. So the signs were there.
I watched the first half of the show, Rise, last night and it is chilling. I would compare it to World at War because of the use of real film of the time over massive narration. The most chilling part to me was the Olympics. I thought of China. How they banned cars so the air would not be so bad, and apparently arrested thousands so there would be no demonstrations for the happy tourists to see. Smoke and mirrors.
I didn't watch any of it but thought of how in some ways the technology we have today changed the perception. We know about Tienamin Square. We know that the China they showed is not the real thing. Back in the later 30's they could put on a show and for those who wanted to it was easy to believe that German was not an iron run dictatorship and that the things they might have heard of did not really exist since they didn't see them.
I'm hopeful but not optimistic. The whole tsa story and the frequent flashing of the fear card, the way our government is pushing to get the leaks that embarresed them stopped by bullying foreign governments and making examples, the whole frequent flashing of the fear card and the we'll make you safe idea, all of these are big red flags that something bad is going on.
We do have a deep tradition of free speech and resisting government and those that want to make us so safe from everything but them we keep silent know this. People WILL speak out. They will face concequences too. Push too hard and you wake the sheep. It can be done, however, and is being done in careful ways.
That Germany became such an ironclad dictatorship so swiftly shows that you can write a constitution and give freedoms to people but you *cannot* institutionilize them if there is no tradition. If there is stability then over time they'll take but if not just creating a government doesn't do the same thing. And forcing it on people in defeat while being punished for losing made sure it would fail.
But its horrifying that small things like refusing the salute got you sent to concentration camps. Somewhere along the way the Germans got used to the act and embrased it. Its a lesson for any wanna be dictator to savor.
Recently I also saw the true story of Valkari. One of the points in it was that they needed something new and honorable to build this new society on. The German resistance was used. It was built from inside the culture. And the reality was taught and forced into the open. In time and generations things changed. Young Germans today can feel pride in their country as it has become. But time and old memories had to pass first. The people living in Germany now do have a tradition and it would be harder for the same to repeat and there would be more resistance to it. It is not impossible but then it is NEVER impossible if people ever give up.
Was it accurate to start out saying "It was September of 1939, and if you were German, you knew that war with Poland meant you would be at war with Britain and France."
I kind of thought most Germans were far enough out of the loop at that time to not know of the ramifications of this occurring, at least in the first week of September of 1939. I assume then that the BBC was not yet banned from German homes in 1938-39
The footage was excellent, much of the color footage was in high definition, which really gave one the sense of pageantry and omnipresent red, black and white flags almost everywhere. Further historical proof of the dangers of nationalism. It usually means you, the citizen, abdicate to someone in power, who consolidates their power until it is as all encompassing as Hitler or Stalin even though Stalin was far more feared than he was ever trusted by your ordinary Soviet citizen.
I thought the combined effect of all stock footage and little in the way of commentary other than piercing statements detailing Nazi atrocities, throughout the piece to be a damning indictment of those ordinary Germans swept away by the tide of fervent devotion to the Fuhrer.
This is the "old" style of documentary and it still works. I recently bought the full dvd set of World at War as a present to myself on cyber monday prices. Of all the documentaries I wanted that one since its done much the same way, told visually and with as little narration as you can get by with. Let people *see* and feel and it gets a much better message.
The high def is astonishing, much different than the murky pictures so many grew up seeing which make it seem like a long time ago instead of just yesterday.
I like my history with more direct content and less interpretation from 70 years later. Let it speak for itself.
After watching the program last night on the History channel, I think the USA is ripe to be led by someone exactly like Hitler. With the unemployment levels and problems we have with keeping America "American". I wouldn't be surprised if history didn't repeat itself.
I had this same exact thought while watching the program.
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Potential danger of dictatorship
