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Old 12-30-2010, 09:40 AM
 
77,786 posts, read 59,928,695 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
No, I'm just trying to place NK in a realistic perspective, within a global spectrum, without my perception being colored by the dogmatic subjectivity that was spoon fed to me in grade school and continuously reinforced by the media.

Every socioeconomy is "controlled" by some powerful entity or another. It doesn't matter if it is the government or the church or the media or corporate empires or the military or a caste system or monarchy or kleptocracy or institutionalized greed or pure delusion. There are a couple of hundred countries in the world, and NK ranks among the lowest only if you are very selective in the criteria you choose. For example, NK's life expectancy ranks above Brazil, Romania, and Morocco, in spite of what is here alluded to as the government's negligent homicide of 5 or 10% of the population.

Distrust? They distrust a nation that has 15x their population, half the world's arms, nearly all the world's nuclear capability, an armed and trained soldier standing on their border for every 1,000 inhabitants, declared your country to be in an elite group of evil, and a penchant for invading countries to eliminate imaginary weapons or remove a drug dealer from the presidency. And you can't think of a way to justify that distrust?
LOL. This is NK we are talking about....not Cuba or Venezuela etc etc etc.

I'd be thrilled to see your NK life expectancy stats (Post alledged famine).
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Old 12-30-2010, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post

I'd be thrilled to see your NK life expectancy stats (Post alledged famine).
Total Population > Life Expectancy At Birth statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

NK ranked 121 out of 225, based on 2008 data.
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Old 12-30-2010, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,579 posts, read 86,624,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post

I'd be thrilled to see your NK life expectancy stats (Post alledged famine).
Total Population > Life Expectancy At Birth statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

NK ranked 121 out of 225, based on 2008 data.

I just knew it wouldn't be long before somebody brought up Venezuela---a free democratic multi-party country with fair, internationally monitored elections. Why not Chile, how come you don't want to talk about the US puppet Pinochet and his soccer stadiums? Find me some evidence that Chavez (or even Castro, for that matter) has been personally responsible for more ordered deaths than Pinochet.
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Old 12-30-2010, 02:15 PM
 
77,786 posts, read 59,928,695 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Total Population > Life Expectancy At Birth statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

NK ranked 121 out of 225, based on 2008 data.

I just knew it wouldn't be long before somebody brought up Venezuela---a free democratic multi-party country with fair, internationally monitored elections. Why not Chile, how come you don't want to talk about the US puppet Pinochet and his soccer stadiums? Find me some evidence that Chavez (or even Castro, for that matter) has been personally responsible for more ordered deaths than Pinochet.
1) The ranking of 121 out of 225 does not reflect the chances of a famine recurring. It's more a view of the status quo operation of the country.

2) I am mentioning Cuba and Venezuela not as a negative but as a positive in that they are fairly open countries. NK is in a league all their own in terms of secrecy and not sharing bad news with their populance or the rest of the world. I seem to recall that even the CIA was caught badly unaware of just *HOW* bad things had gotten within NK during the famine.

It seems you are going to every possible effort to absolve NK because the US happens to dislike them. This isn't about the US or their banana wars or puppet dictators.....it's about NK. They control EVERYTHING in that country and even when things were obviously heading down the toilet were too concerned to save a couple million of their own people. But hey, it's ok because other countries do it and the US is bad....or some such bizzaro-logic.

P.S. South Korea is about 80 slots higher in the mortality ranking but no doubt that is somehow that fault of everyone except NK.
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Old 12-30-2010, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Denver
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Well back to the original topic for a moment. The Napoleonic Wars and WWI surely belong on the list.
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Old 12-30-2010, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,579 posts, read 86,624,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
he ranking of 121 out of 225 does not reflect the chances of a famine recurring. It's more a view of the status quo operation of the country.

It seems you are going to every possible effort to absolve NK because the US happens to dislike them. This isn't about the US or their banana wars or puppet dictators.....it's about NK. They control EVERYTHING in that country and even when things were obviously heading down the toilet were too concerned to save a couple million of their own people. But hey, it's ok because other countries do it and the US is bad....or some such bizzaro-logic.
.

You have decided that human death is reprehensible and preventable ONLY if it is caused by a governmental policy, and you have decided that Kim is the ONLY dictator in the world who has ever inflicted such a heinous policy. And you have offered evidence ONLY of one single natural disaster that he failed to plan for. You have, despite repeated prodding, refused to present your evidence of any ongoing, day-to-day hardship in NK in which governmental policy hampers the nutrition, health, education or well being of the people of NK. You have refused to produce a single ordinary peaceable citizen of NK who was killed with Kim's intent. I have offered repeated arguments opposed to your position, and your only response is "We're talking about North Korea" as if that by itself is all you need to say to prove that North Korea is what you say it is.

I'm "going to every possible effort" to start out at a position of objective neutrality, in which NK and other countries are measured by the same yardsticks. Somebody above proposed that Kim belongs in an historical retrospective about people like Hitler and Stalin. "The US happens to dislike them" is not the argument it takes to move me off neutral. "The status quo operation of a country" doesn't seem to me like a bad way to judge it.

Last edited by jtur88; 12-30-2010 at 10:03 PM..
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Old 12-31-2010, 09:08 AM
 
77,786 posts, read 59,928,695 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You have decided that human death is reprehensible and preventable ONLY if it is caused by a governmental policy, and you have decided that Kim is the ONLY dictator in the world who has ever inflicted such a heinous policy. And you have offered evidence ONLY of one single natural disaster that he failed to plan for. You have, despite repeated prodding, refused to present your evidence of any ongoing, day-to-day hardship in NK in which governmental policy hampers the nutrition, health, education or well being of the people of NK. You have refused to produce a single ordinary peaceable citizen of NK who was killed with Kim's intent. I have offered repeated arguments opposed to your position, and your only response is "We're talking about North Korea" as if that by itself is all you need to say to prove that North Korea is what you say it is.

I'm "going to every possible effort" to start out at a position of objective neutrality, in which NK and other countries are measured by the same yardsticks. Somebody above proposed that Kim belongs in an historical retrospective about people like Hitler and Stalin. "The US happens to dislike them" is not the argument it takes to move me off neutral. "The status quo operation of a country" doesn't seem to me like a bad way to judge it.
It's really sweet how you keep blaming this on a natural disaster when their food production was already down 50% in the years leading up to it.

FYI- They are having another famine as we speak.

Quote:
You have refused to produce a single ordinary peaceable citizen of NK who was killed with Kim's intent.
This was is an absolute gem. LMAO. You're not even trying anymore...just hand waving and sputtering. When you blow up like this it's not even worthwhile, it's just a trainwreck.

I leave you the last word or bizarre interpretation of the utopia that is the RNK. Good luck in your future endeavors.
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Old 12-31-2010, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,579 posts, read 86,624,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
It's really sweet how you keep blaming this on a natural disaster when their food production was already down 50% in the years leading up to it.

FYI- They are having another famine as we speak.

This was is an absolute gem. LMAO. You're not even trying anymore...just hand waving and sputtering. When you blow up like this it's not even worthwhile, it's just a trainwreck. :smack

I leave you the last word or bizarre interpretation of the utopia that is the RNK.
.
In other words, you have no evidence that things are what you say they are in NK, and you've now reduced yourself to ad hominems, to try to wriggle off a hook of your own making. It's communist and therefore it is evil, and here are a couple of cherry-picked facts for the lapdog media to prove it is evil, but wait, you can't even find any of those. Along with the usual black/white argumentation that if I can't prove it is a utopia, it must be Hitlerian by default.

By the way, famines do not come all of a sudden in the middle of the night like tornados. It takes a while for them to build up, and there are often years leading up to them. Five million tons of food is considered by global standards to be subsistent for the population of NK, and before the famine, production was 7-million, so the early years could have justifiably been regarded as a cut in their surplus, not worthy of panic unless the disastrous conditions are prolonged. You come on here analyzing history, and you haven't even a grasp of the simplistic dynamics of famine. You think the Irish got up one morning and said "Larjaysis, me fookin potatoes are after blightin' and all".

Somehow, the policy to produce 7 million tons of food when 5 million would be enough, frankly, doesn't sound to me like Kim had intentionally diverted attention and resources to trivial projects at the expense of food production, negligently starving his people, as you have blamed him for.

Last edited by jtur88; 12-31-2010 at 10:41 AM..
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Old 12-31-2010, 01:12 PM
 
2,226 posts, read 5,090,411 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post

-----

Not reliable info, as you well know.
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Old 12-31-2010, 01:17 PM
 
2,226 posts, read 5,090,411 times
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"The US happens to dislike them" is not the argument....

-----

If the US does not like them, they are good. That's your argument.
You would support Hitler and the Ribbentrop-Molotov if Nazis were still in power.
Party policy.
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