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Old 03-25-2011, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Iowa
3,025 posts, read 3,339,730 times
Reputation: 3823

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Can't see much in the way of victory, moral or otherwise, having to pull back 300,000 men on the fly, in leaky old boats from a front you can't hold with that many troops. Looks like one of the darkest moments of the war for Britian, IMO.

The Germans had poor intellegence gathering methods which spoiled their advantage in the Battle of Britian, and the war as a whole. Lack of intellegence did more than anything to lose the war for them. If the situation was reversed and the Germans were escaping, the Allies would have operatives behind the lines, be it spies, planes, ships, subs....to report the retreat and move in to destroy the enemy before 300,000 escaped.

Stalin was very good at intellegece, even before the war he had deep planted spies in the UK and US that went undetected for years. If the Germans had even a whiff of what RADAR was, even if they did not know exactly how it worked, they would have known enough to bomb all radio towers along the coast before hitting any other targets. That's all the Germans needed to defeat the RAF, gain air supremacy and prevent the Normandy Invasion. If the Germans had only one mole to tell them about the enigma code being cracked, or knowing how make an atomic bomb to pair up with their new missile that everyone else is 10 years behind on, what a game changer. Just one spy in the right place makes all the difference, the Germans were fighting the war half blind.

I agree that Soviet manpower played the greatest role in defeating Germany, but manpower was worthless against the german war machine without war materials via lend lease from the US. Whole factories were dissassembled in the US and shipped to Russia, then reassembled by US engineers to get Soviet tank production underway. They had NOTHING but manpower, EVERYTHING ELSE came from the US, the planes, artillery, tanks, guns, overcoats, boots, food. The Russians were eventually able to produce and innovate on their own, but it never would have happened in time to defeat Germany without all the US did for Russia.
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Old 03-26-2011, 06:58 PM
 
32,525 posts, read 32,457,879 times
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The rescue?

Heroic.
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Old 03-26-2011, 10:49 PM
 
15,921 posts, read 18,171,696 times
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How do I see it?

A loser (British) putting a spin on a military disaster.

Since when is defeat and withdrawl something to crow about?
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Dublin, CA
3,811 posts, read 3,831,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plwhit View Post
How do I see it?

A loser (British) putting a spin on a military disaster.

Since when is defeat and withdrawl something to crow about?
Definately have to agree with this statement. To the British, its a great military acheivement. The brits can make anything popular, so long as they did it. There is no such thing as a defeat to the brits. Afterall, for a hundred years, they had (key word here) the greatest army in the world.

The real disgusting aspect to Dunkirk, which no one has addressed is: The fact the Brtis turned tail and ran, left what Free French were there fighting, on their own. This lead to their killing and/or capture.

THAT should be the focus of Dunkirk. The fact you don't leave your allies behind.
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Texas
15,894 posts, read 16,020,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil306 View Post
The real disgusting aspect to Dunkirk, which no one has addressed is: The fact the Brtis turned tail and ran, left what Free French were there fighting, on their own. This lead to their killing and/or capture.

THAT should be the focus of Dunkirk. The fact you don't leave your allies behind.
Let me see....hmmmm. This was after the French surrendered, as they usually do, right?
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Old 03-27-2011, 04:49 PM
 
28,900 posts, read 48,688,332 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil306 View Post
Definately have to agree with this statement. To the British, its a great military acheivement. The brits can make anything popular, so long as they did it. There is no such thing as a defeat to the brits. Afterall, for a hundred years, they had (key word here) the greatest army in the world.

The real disgusting aspect to Dunkirk, which no one has addressed is: The fact the Brtis turned tail and ran, left what Free French were there fighting, on their own. This lead to their killing and/or capture.

THAT should be the focus of Dunkirk. The fact you don't leave your allies behind.
You're kidding, right? They would have been slaughtered where they stood, and it wouldn't have slowed down the Wehrmacht's timetable by a second. The French government was already making plans to abandon Paris.

Discretion is the better part of valor. The British and French troops that were evacuated were the nucleus of the armies that were eventually able to punch into Germany in 1945. None of this would have happened had they been obliterated in 1940.
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Old 03-27-2011, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Cupertino, CA
860 posts, read 1,842,489 times
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There is no dishonor in a strategic retreat. Troops were saved and lived on to train and fight another day. Better this than death or becoming a POW.
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Old 03-27-2011, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
1,448 posts, read 4,445,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plwhit View Post
How do I see it?

A loser (British) putting a spin on a military disaster.

Since when is defeat and withdrawl something to crow about?
Wow, I strongly disagree with this. I could name a dozen instances where a strategic withdrawal leads to ultimate victory. There are defeats, and then there are defeats you can recover from to win later.

I think your characterization is way off. No one, not even the British, are crowing about Dunkirk. I think they see it for what it is -- a defeat where brave actions made it a recoverable disaster rather than a crippling disaster.
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Old 03-27-2011, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,069 posts, read 20,218,810 times
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Originally Posted by Off Topic View Post
Wow, I strongly disagree with this. I could name a dozen instances where a strategic withdrawal leads to ultimate victory. .
This wasn't a strategic withdrawal, they were forced off the continent and were running for their lives. I would think that in a strategic withdrawal, one plans for the time to bring one's equipment of war along, and falls back on a prepared in advance defensive position. The Brits abandoned their equipment and only after the troops were back home did they start to scramble to prepare the means to repell an invasion.

What is good about Dunkirk is that it could have been worse, but it was still pretty bad.
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Dublin, CA
3,811 posts, read 3,831,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ketabcha View Post
Let me see....hmmmm. This was after the French surrendered, as they usually do, right?
You obviously didn't read what I wrote: I said, "Free French." Even after the French surrendered, MANY continued to fight and many went to the UK and trained along allied forces. They also took part in the D-Day Landings. Again, like it or not, the brits ran out on the french still fighting the Germans in Dunkirk and the surrounding areas, leaving many to be slaughtered.
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