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Old 01-23-2013, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
8,087 posts, read 9,772,235 times
Reputation: 6650

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Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
Hey, Mr. Rational...
Why not allow replies on topics that aren't locked? For sure, many topics become outdated, but history has a way of repeating itself, and many old events can become topical again. Why allow the first thoughts to always be the only thoughts?
After all, time brings insights and perspectives that may not be apparent at first. Many topics are posted here on C-D before all information is in and settled about the matter.

I realized long ago that the Liberty incident would always remain controversial. After all, it was a secret ship, part of a secret fleet, doing secret things, out beyond the reach of fleet assistance. It was 1967 and Israel, an ally, was at war. So were we, in a different war.

Both the ship and country that attacked her were vastly outgunned, both were doing things that possibly should not have been done, and neither stood to profit from the injuries and deaths suffered.

And it all happened 44 years ago. We who knew these ships best are all getting old now, and some of have passed on. After I made my contribution to this topic 2 years ago, I expected someone would ask me more questions, but no one ever did. That's OK- I put my two cents in on who was to blame and who wasn't. All I could have added was my belief that another Liberty incident couldn't be covered up these days, and that the world back then was a different world.

The only thing I would like people to really remember are the sailors who fought so valiantly to save their ship and those who died doing so. These men all acted in the very highest and proudest traditions of the United States Navy, and should not be forgotten.

The seas are a hostile place. Sea combat is much like fighting on a different planet where anything and everything can kill a human being. Even our very first and last act as a human being, breathing air, is not a given in sea combat.

The intent and purpose of the Navy is to go into harm's way when called to do so, and anything can happen out there on the edges of the world.

If a non-sequiter brings this topic back and as a result brings these forgotten men back to mind, that's all to the good as far as I see the matter. This is the History section, and I would never want this part of C-D to become locked and fixed down. I don't care about inactivity- not everything here should be passing and/or momentary.

Because the fellow who brought back the thread from the dead trawled up many in other forums without adding anything. He was outed by another member as just whoring for points to win the Most informative poster contest.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
29,168 posts, read 22,137,026 times
Reputation: 23792
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
[color=black][font=Verdana]I went to ‘Nam on a Liberty ship, the USS Tutuila ARG-4, in 1966. I am amazed they saved the ship after an engine room flooding. Liberty ships were seagoing trucks and not meant for combat of any kind. They should have been given the awards at the White House not some random airplane hangar. That was an insult.]
Actually, the USS Liberty was a converted Victory ship. The Victory class replaced the earlier Liberty class cargo ships late in WWII. USS Belmont and USS Liberty were the only AGTR ships converted on Victory hulls. USS Georgetown was a Liberty hull, and one other AGTR was a converted small aircraft carrier.

After conversion, those empty cargo spaces were all crammed full of electronic gear and crewmen. You're absolutely right, Greg- all the AGTRs were old and slow, but Liberty was completely modern inside. Only the hull, engines and steering gear were old.

I've always believed the attack was initiated at a low tactical level of command by some nervous trigger happy Lieutenant. The 7 Day War moved very fast, and had many fronts. In a situation like that, there are always junior officers who are itching to get into the fight, and I believe that the intelligence officer who called the attack and the 2 pilots who flew the jets were all simply boiling to get into combat.

The Israeli PT boats that followed could have had commanders who wanted the same, or could have been given orders to back up the aircraft, as their air force may not have been trained as well for sea combat.

I am no anti-Semite, but it is true that American Jews were the major force in the creation of the state of Israel, and Truman's efforts on their behalf created large bloc of loyal Democratic voters which lasts to this day.
But in 1948, a year after the Nuremberg Trials, Americans were still sickened from the Holocaust and wanted the Jews to have a homeland.

Israel is what it is. Just like the United States. once they are recognized, they determined things for themselves, and we cannot control them any more than the British could control us once we became independent.

Are there conspiracies? Sure. Conspiracies abound everywhere, and the middle east has always been thick with conspiracies.
The thing about conspiracies is the ones that are successful are never found out. Only the ones that are pipe dreams or half baked are the ones that are discovered.

There was never an overwhelmingly good reason for Israel to attack an American ship, but there were lots of good reasons to avoid attacking Liberty.

I can also understand why the crew of Liberty were decorated so anonymously. There were 4 other AGTRs out there, sailing thousands of miles away from any American support, all on their own, and all easy pickings for any tin pot dictator who wanted to make a name for himself.

I was at sea when the Liberty was attacked. So was Pueblo and the other AGER fleet. Within a year, the North Koreans decded they could get away with attacking Pueblo, and they did get away with it.
Two years later, all the ships in both classes were de-commissioned.

Lots of spuclation could be made about both, but I believe the North Koreans wanted to pick a fight with the U.S., and the Israelis did not.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
8,087 posts, read 9,772,235 times
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Pueblo is a museum ship in North Korea to this day.

Sort of like what Huascar is to Chile/Peru.
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:43 PM
 
43 posts, read 86,087 times
Reputation: 33
The Liberty was a spy ship, with the best electronic gathering equipment of its day on a ship. It was gathering info on Israel troop movements and transferring them to Cyprus where the British were and the Brits gave out info to Israel's enemies. Israel warned the US that it would take out the the gathering equipment with as little loss of life as they could. Nixon was dragging his feet to help Israel and using the ship to make them sweat. That is why there is so much hushhush about what went on. I course if this was today Obama would not keep it a secrect that he was helping his "spiritual" breathren(Arabs)by giving them Israel's troop movements.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:59 AM
 
14,300 posts, read 14,088,313 times
Reputation: 45411
Quote:
The Liberty was a spy ship, with the best electronic gathering equipment of its day on a ship. It was gathering info on Israel troop movements and transferring them to Cyprus where the British were and the Brits gave out info to Israel's enemies. Israel warned the US that it would take out the the gathering equipment with as little loss of life as they could. Nixon was dragging his feet to help Israel and using the ship to make them sweat. That is why there is so much hushhush about what went on. I course if this was today Obama would not keep it a secrect that he was helping his "spiritual" breathren(Arabs)by giving them Israel's troop movements.
Errrr....you do realize that the USS Liberty was sunk in 1967 during the "Six Day War" between Israel, Egypt, Syria and Jordan do you not? Richard Nixon wasn't President in until 1969.

You apparently are confusing the 1967 war with the "Yom Kippur War" of 1973.

Please don't use the history forum to bash President Obama. If you want to make half-baked (and racist) comments about Obama or other political figures, the place to do so is the Politics Forum. Their standards are far looser than the standards in the History Forum are. We pride ourselves on correctness and accuracy here.

The History Forum is not a place for someone who doesn't really know any history to vent their own personal views about politics.
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:40 AM
 
9,981 posts, read 8,531,858 times
Reputation: 5664
Yes, it was intentional. Adm. Kidd was ordered to cover it up.
He said so. Ward Boston, who was Chief Counsel to the Naval Court
of Inquiry, says it was intentional and that he was ordered by the
White House to say it was "mistaken identity", he has said this
under sworn oath.
Sec. of Defense McNamara personally cancelled the Navy's
attempt to rescue the ship, this has been confirmed by the
commanders of the USS America and USS Saratoga aircraft
carriers.
The US flag was riddled in bulletholes. The Israelis attacked
the helpless Liberty surveillance ship for hours. The Israeli
pilot conversations and orders were actually picked up by
a US spy plane. See James Bamford's book, "Body of Secrets".
Survivors also say the same, for example you can read what
James Ennes has said about the Israeli torpedo boats.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:54 PM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,465,675 times
Reputation: 14621
Quote:
Originally Posted by pugboy View Post
The Liberty was a spy ship, with the best electronic gathering equipment of its day on a ship. It was gathering info on Israel troop movements and transferring them to Cyprus where the British were and the Brits gave out info to Israel's enemies. Israel warned the US that it would take out the the gathering equipment with as little loss of life as they could. Nixon was dragging his feet to help Israel and using the ship to make them sweat. That is why there is so much hushhush about what went on. I course if this was today Obama would not keep it a secrect that he was helping his "spiritual" breathren(Arabs)by giving them Israel's troop movements.
Ignoring the mistake over who the president was...

The actual theory holds that the ship was listening to Israeli communications and then transmitting these back to Washington. Of course, the Soviets were most likely listening to the traffic from Liberty as they had with other similar ships. The Israeli's were planning a first-strike on the Syrians. The fear would be that the orders being sent to their units would be intercepted by Liberty which would then transmit the intel to Washington which in turn would be picked up by the Soviets who would send the intelligence to the Syrians. This would result in the Israeli's losing their surprise and initiative and was an intelligence leak they couldn't do anything about short of silencing the ship.

As for the Obama part (ignoring the racism), I'm not so sure. In Obama's first year in office his administration approved the awarding of a Silver Star to Terry Halberdier, an electronics mate on Liberty that reparied the ships antenna to restore communications while under fire. While other medals had been given out in the past to crew members of Liberty this one was different in that it directly cited Israel as the aggressor nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
Yes, it was intentional. Adm. Kidd was ordered to cover it up.
He said so. Ward Boston, who was Chief Counsel to the Naval Court
of Inquiry, says it was intentional and that he was ordered by the
White House to say it was "mistaken identity", he has said this
under sworn oath.
Sec. of Defense McNamara personally cancelled the Navy's
attempt to rescue the ship, this has been confirmed by the
commanders of the USS America and USS Saratoga aircraft
carriers.
The US flag was riddled in bulletholes. The Israelis attacked
the helpless Liberty surveillance ship for hours. The Israeli
pilot conversations and orders were actually picked up by
a US spy plane. See James Bamford's book, "Body of Secrets".
Survivors also say the same, for example you can read what
James Ennes has said about the Israeli torpedo boats.
I posted my thoughts on the first two pages. Part of me thinks it was intentional and I detailed the scenario as to why. Another much smaller part thinks it may have been a case of mistaken identity or a situation that spiralled out of control that was covered up to save face. Regardless the Cold War made for strange scenarios.

The one question I posted back when this thread was new and was never answered is the issue relating to the flag on Liberty. US Navy protocol is that ships at sea outside the sight of land do not fly their flags and this had been protocol at the time for 100 years and tradition for over 150. I posted links showing the protocol and examples of ships not flying flags. Actual pictures of Liberty before and after the attack don't show it flying a flag save for a small reserve ensign flag in the immediate aftermath. Yet, Liberty's crew claims the ship was flying their flag during the first fly-overs as if it was a matter of routine. The crew further claims that after the initial air attacks they hoisted a flag as they claim the main one had been destroyed in the attack. I've seen pictures of the bullet riddled flag which is owned by Jim Ennes, but am still curious as to why the crew was flying a flag, which would have been against Navy protocol. The case against mistaken identity is largely predicated on the Liberty having her flag flying though several aviators that I have seen comment on the incident say even a regular ship flag would have been hard to notice on a fly-by.
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Old 01-28-2013, 05:44 PM
 
9,981 posts, read 8,531,858 times
Reputation: 5664
In this case, the sworn testimony is unanimous: Throughout the day of June 8, 1967, USS Liberty flew an Amerian flag. Prior to the attack, USS Liberty flew her normal-sized flag or "steaming ensign." During and after the attack, she flew her larger-sized "holiday ensign."

USS Liberty Inquiry - American Arguments: Excuse-No Flag

Zionists kept pounding her.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:06 PM
 
1,105 posts, read 2,294,272 times
Reputation: 1074
If the attack was intentional and the U.S. did nothing in return like carpet bombing an Israeli city then there are traitors in Washington. But wait a minute. That is the reason no politician has called for a Congressional investigation because then those butt licking politicians would be on the spot. They would either have to call for retaliation against Israel or being known for who they really are. Things are starting to make more sense now.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:42 AM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,465,675 times
Reputation: 14621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
In this case, the sworn testimony is unanimous: Throughout the day of June 8, 1967, USS Liberty flew an Amerian flag. Prior to the attack, USS Liberty flew her normal-sized flag or "steaming ensign." During and after the attack, she flew her larger-sized "holiday ensign."

USS Liberty Inquiry - American Arguments: Excuse-No Flag

Zionists kept pounding her.
I hadn't realized exactly how close Liberty was to the shore, makes sense now why they were flying the flag, per regulations. I had thought at the time of the attack that they were much further from the coast, but that is not the case.

While I'm sure you'll dismiss it as "Zionist propaganda" this is a pretty well sourced article using both American and Israeli declassified documents to recontrstuct what happened. They of course present it as being a huge mistake on the part of the Israeli's, but it is an interesting read nonetheless. The article also acknowledges that many still question exactly what happened, though it does attempt to refute the most common reason revolving around the impending Israeli attack on Syria.

The USS Liberty: Case Closed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angorlee View Post
If the attack was intentional and the U.S. did nothing in return like carpet bombing an Israeli city then there are traitors in Washington. But wait a minute. That is the reason no politician has called for a Congressional investigation because then those butt licking politicians would be on the spot. They would either have to call for retaliation against Israel or being known for who they really are. Things are starting to make more sense now.
Um, there were several investigations Congressional and otherwise. What Congress did not do is launch an official public inquiry, like the one they just had on Benghazi.

If we assume the attack was intentional, then it would not have been a lightly made decision by the Israeli's. I don't subscribe to the same theories you and some others do regarding Israel and Jews, so that argument/theory doesn't work for me. If the attack was intentional it would have had to have been made at the highest levels of the Israeli government and for overwhelmingly good reason from their perspective. The US was/is their most ardent ally and they absolutely needed US support during the war both materially and politically both in the UN and in general. They were also very much risking expanding the conflict wider and drawing in other nations.

The US's response would be measured and most likely handled quietly and diplomatically as it was. There were many incidents in the Cold War that could have easily escalated to conflict that were simply covered up and resolved quietly to avoid the risk of wider conflict. The US's national geopolitical interests ultimately trump anything else in these cases.
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