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View Poll Results: Which event changed our world more?
9-11 attacks 22 51.16%
'08 crash 14 32.56%
other (please explain) 7 16.28%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-09-2011, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
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There is no doubt in my mind that I'm living in a very different world than the one I came of age in during the 90's. If the book The Fourth Turning is right; we are cycling through 4 different broad "generations" of time where a prevailing attitude/world view affects the views/attitudes of the next; the 4th Turning in the past always had game-changing catalyst that is remembered as a defining moment in history, like the Revolution, Civil War, and Beginning of the Great Depression.

But can that change be narrowed down to a specific event (like the crash of '29 or the election of President Lincoln and subequent secession of the South) where everything changed? If so, when did we switch directions; 9-11 or the autumn of '08?

Both events instigated huge paragrim shifts, but for me it wasn't until '08 that I woke up one morning and realized I was living in a different world.

What about you? Which event will kids read about in history books a hundred years in the future and be told that is when everything changed..

Last edited by Chango; 09-09-2011 at 11:49 AM..
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Old 09-09-2011, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Northglenn, CO
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I believe economic studies have found there are links between 9/11 and the eventual collapse of our economy so one could argue that 9/11 was the catalyst for the extened recession we are currently experiencing.

That's a very basic and simplified explanation, however.
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Old 09-09-2011, 11:45 AM
 
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I take "other". And "Other" encompasses a helluva lot, but I'll say that the internet age, and the credit age (the past 40-50 years, in other words) has been what has primarily transformed this country. American corporations and the American government began seeing credit and borrowing as a virtue in itself, and corporations responded by increasing their bottoms lines by profiting off of that credit. We have become a nation whose primary business is moving money around, and profiting off of that movement. That has been born out of the explosion of the consumer class of the past 30-40 years, and particularly with the housing and internet explosion of the past 10.

The greed from corporations in profiting off of the credit sought by the consumer/middle class is also becoming our downfall. Corporations have gotten FILTHY RICH off the interest, but somehow, political factions in this country blame the consumer, and think he should chunk more of his or her paycheck into the government kitty to get us out of this. Problem is, the corporations go nowhere without the consumer, so stifling the middle class is going to kill jobs, kill business and kill our economy. The probleem is not stifling "job creators". This fact has been utterly ignored, especially by the Right. And the Right's been propagating this lie by fundamentally changing the narrative of our recent history.

Don't get me wrong, the response to 9/11 was deleterious to our financial condition in a MASSIVE way, but it's still dwarfed by irresponsible financial practices of corporations and individuals (and government) over the past generation and a half. 2008's crash was merely a symptom, not a catalyst in and of itself. I think it's a distant 3rd in this poll.
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Old 09-09-2011, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Whiteville Tennessee
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Markets crash and markets rise. But I fear we shall never get the freedoms and privacies back that we have surrendered in the name of "security."
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Old 09-09-2011, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Wherever women are
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I voted 2008 crash. 9/11 isn't that big of a world/America changing event in the broader scheme of things.
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Old 09-09-2011, 02:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka View Post
I voted 2008 crash. 9/11 isn't that big of a world/America changing event in the broader scheme of things.
I agree. The crash of 2008 had much farther reaching effects globally and for America in general than 9/11 ever did. Additionally, the situation that created the collapse traces it's roots back much further than 9/11 and overall that date really had a minimal impact on the economy of the US.

Someone else commented that markets rise and crash, but the same thing can be said of wars that come and go. The wars that were spawned by 9/11 are not globe changing wars. No borders are being redrawn, no major nations are falling, etc. They are essentially very localized affairs more akin to a Korea or Vietnam (and not even to that scale), not a WW2.

Also, I agree with the sentiment that the "world didn't change on 9/11", or at least I didn't notice it. However, as the economy nosedived in 2008 there was a palpatable change in the countries and the worlds mood and outlook. Business remained "as usual" after 9/11, but it changed dramatically in 2008.

The OP mentioned the Fourth Turning and for what it's worth Strauss and Howe would peg the "change" moment as being around 2005 or so which would be Bush's re-election and a much more divisive campaign nationally then in 2000. The election of 2004 marked the entrenching of the Red vs. Blue.
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Old 09-09-2011, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Wherever women are
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
I agree. The crash of 2008 had much farther reaching effects globally and for America in general than 9/11 ever did. Additionally, the situation that created the collapse traces it's roots back much further than 9/11 and overall that date really had a minimal impact on the economy of the US.

Someone else commented that markets rise and crash, but the same thing can be said of wars that come and go. The wars that were spawned by 9/11 are not globe changing wars. No borders are being redrawn, no major nations are falling, etc. They are essentially very localized affairs more akin to a Korea or Vietnam (and not even to that scale), not a WW2.

Also, I agree with the sentiment that the "world didn't change on 9/11", or at least I didn't notice it. However, as the economy nosedived in 2008 there was a palpatable change in the countries and the worlds mood and outlook. Business remained "as usual" after 9/11, but it changed dramatically in 2008.

The OP mentioned the Fourth Turning and for what it's worth Strauss and Howe would peg the "change" moment as being around 2005 or so which would be Bush's re-election and a much more divisive campaign nationally then in 2000. The election of 2004 marked the entrenching of the Red vs. Blue.
A bigger world changing event is about to unfold. Greece is rumoured to be all set to default.
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Old 09-09-2011, 02:47 PM
 
Location: FROM Dixie, but IN SoCal
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I voted "Other" because, in my mind, the economic meltdown of '08 is directly linked to our response to 9/11. In other words, to me they are inseparable.

In still other words, I think 9/11 succeeded beyond the terrorists' wildest dreams, because by a single act:

* they very nearly brought down the entire First World economy; To make things worse, "the fat lady" hasn't nearly begun to sing yet
* they have greatly restricted free travel and free enterprise, at least within the United States
* they have set us to fighting among ourselves, and in so doing they've brought out our very worst

In other words, the United States was but the first domino in the entire economic chain. Everything else has been brought about by what the United States has done, or failed to do, as a consequence of 9/11.

But hey, that's just my opinion.

-- Nighteyes
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Old 09-09-2011, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,011 posts, read 26,956,732 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighteyes View Post
I voted "Other" because, in my mind, the economic meltdown of '08 is directly linked to our response to 9/11. In other words, to me they are inseparable.

In still other words, I think 9/11 succeeded beyond the terrorists' wildest dreams, because by a single act:

* they very nearly brought down the entire First World economy, and are still having major impact on it
* they have greatly restricted free travel and free enterprise, at least within the United States
* they have set us to fighting among ourselves, and in so doing they've brought out our very worst

In other words, the United States was but the first domino in the entire economic chain. Everything else has been brought about by what the United States has done or failed to do.

But hey, that's just my opinion.

-- Nighteyes
It might appear so to the casual observer, but not quite.

The 2008 crisis is a direct product of lack of oversight on wall street, and the lot of restrictions which were in place for mortgage loans being systemically removed by Clinton and then, Bush. It's the housing and it's absolutely the housing.
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Old 09-09-2011, 03:03 PM
 
Location: FROM Dixie, but IN SoCal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka View Post
It might appear so to the casual observer, but not quite.

The 2008 crisis is a direct product of lack of oversight on wall street, and the lot of restrictions which were in place for mortgage loans being systemically removed by Clinton and then, Bush. It's the housing and it's absolutely the housing.
It seems we are in strident agreement; same intent, different words. That is, unless you're attempting to say that 9/11 had NO impact on the American economy...
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