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Old 10-07-2011, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Willow Spring and Mocksville
275 posts, read 396,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighteyes View Post

....The South (again an over-simplification) didn't go "Democratic" until some time after the Civil War -- they did so in direct opposition to the Republican Party, which in their minds "caused" the Civil War.....
In light of this, oddly enough there are several Republican-dominated NC counties surrounded by a sea of Democratic ones. This always puzzled me until I started doing research. I was talking to a local historian in one of the counties who told me that his county had "gone Republican" mainly out of resentment against the Confederate authorities during the war. I found this extremely interesting.
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Old 10-07-2011, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Santa FE NM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strelnikov View Post
In light of this, oddly enough there are several Republican-dominated NC counties surrounded by a sea of Democratic ones. This always puzzled me until I started doing research. I was talking to a local historian in one of the counties who told me that his county had "gone Republican" mainly out of resentment against the Confederate authorities during the war. I found this extremely interesting.
H-m-m-m-m! Does this qualify as "the exception that proves the rule?" It also kicks a hole in the idea that the South, and Southerners, were a monolithic, unified body.

How far back in time does this go?
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Old 10-07-2011, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Santa FE NM
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H-m-m-m! I just noticed that my earlier, lengthy post wasn't complete. So here goes.

The Whig Party, from which later sprang the Republican Party, was formed in direct opposition to Andrew Jackson's Democratic Party, which can be described as follows (thanks to dictionary.com): A movement for more democracy in American government in the 1830s. Led by President Andrew Jackson, this movement championed greater rights for the common man and was opposed to any signs of aristocracy in the nation. Jacksonian democracy was aided by the strong spirit of equality among the people of the newer settlements in the South and West. It was also aided by the extension of the vote in eastern states to men without property; in the early days of the United States, many places had allowed only male property owners to vote.

As far as I'm concerned, the Jacksonian Democracy described above wasn't very conservative. That is NOT to say that I favor Andrew Jackson; quite the opposite, in fact.

However, the fact remains that the Whig Party was formed in direct opposition to this. The Republican Party sprang from the Whig Party over the issue of slavery. So what does that say about the founding factors of the modern-day Republican Party?
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Willow Spring and Mocksville
275 posts, read 396,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighteyes View Post
H-m-m-m-m! Does this qualify as "the exception that proves the rule?" It also kicks a hole in the idea that the South, and Southerners, were a monolithic, unified body.

How far back in time does this go?
For the time frame. I don't really know, all I have is a few conversations with local writers and historians in that area.
You're absolutely right: the South was by no means unified. It is part of the Lost Causer mythology that every Southerner was standing firm and loyal against the hated Yankee invader. In fact, there was heavy Unionist sentiment in North Carolina to the extent that Confederate troops were ordered to Randolph county to quell Unionist "disturbances". (There was a famous shootout at the Bond Schoolhouse in Yadkin County between Confederate deserters and the Militia, that had repercussions lasting to the present day. A popular history of Davie County does not mention the fact that the Davie Home Guard was sent into Yadkin county several times to handle deserters and Unionists.) Anywhere from 2-6 thousand North Carolinians slipped over the mountains to join Union forces. At least two regiments (if my memory is right...) of Unionists were formed during the occupation of NC coastal areas by Union forces. Governor Vance was so unhappy with Richmond's treatment of NC that he threatened to secede from the Confederacy.
On a broader scale, every Southern state except South Carolina provided troops for the Union. A sure way to get bashed or flamed on a Civil War forum is to start taking about Southern Unionists.
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Old 10-10-2011, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Wheaton, Illinois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strelnikov View Post
On a broader scale, every Southern state except South Carolina provided troops for the Union. A sure way to get bashed or flamed on a Civil War forum is to start taking about Southern Unionists.

Indeed, for instance Tennessee supplied over 20,000 white troops to fight the rebellion, mostly from east Tennessee. Then of course you had the United States Colored Troops recruited in the state as well.
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Old 10-10-2011, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Southeast Arizona
3,378 posts, read 5,008,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
Indeed, for instance Tennessee supplied over 20,000 white troops to fight the rebellion, mostly from east Tennessee. Then of course you had the United States Colored Troops recruited in the state as well.
Compared to the 100,000+ of Tennesseeans who threw in their lot with the CSA. And a handful of pro-Secessionist forces which were from East Tennessee (Knox, Monroe, Rhea, Polk, Sequatchie counties) including the cities of Chattanooga and (a fair ammount of the population at least) of Knoxville.
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Old 10-10-2011, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Wheaton, Illinois
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Originally Posted by Desert kid View Post
Compared to the 100,000+ of Tennesseeans who threw in their lot with the CSA. And a handful of pro-Secessionist forces which were from East Tennessee (Knox, Monroe, Rhea, Polk, Sequatchie counties) including the cities of Chattanooga and (a fair ammount of the population at least) of Knoxville.

So what? I don't think anyone denies that Tennessee overall was a rebellious state.
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Old 10-11-2011, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Santa FE NM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strelnikov View Post
You're absolutely right: the South was by no means unified. It is part of the Lost Causer mythology that every Southerner was standing firm and loyal against the hated Yankee invader.
That, my friend, is by no means limited to the Lost Causers!

One will find it among the supporters/sympathizers of any people or cause and, oddly enough, also among those who detest/despise said peoples or causes. The human brain often (and quite rapidly) does that, because it makes the related mental processing and storage much easier. Which is exactly how we develop stereotypes, etc.
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Old 10-11-2011, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Aloverton
6,560 posts, read 14,457,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighteyes View Post
One will find it among the supporters/sympathizers of any people or cause and, oddly enough, also among those who detest/despise said peoples or causes. The human brain often (and quite rapidly) does that, because it makes the related mental processing and storage much easier. Which is exactly how we develop stereotypes, etc.
Most people, I think, develop very skewed views of their own pasts by leaving out inconvenient details. Talk to anyone from the former warring nationalities of former Yugoslavia, and you can get a whole protracted rant on how ever since 1100, it's all been [insert nationality]'s fault, they were always the bad guys. Talk to anyone from Poland about any political matter at all--even about the value of protracted rants ("But of course! We have EVERYTHING to rant about!"). Check out a US history textbook for high schoolers called The American Pageant--how is it going to be anything but propaganda? In the end, this seems very human. Thus, I am not at all surprised that neo-Confederates try very hard to avoid the reality that the main weakness of the Confederate military was not lack of supply, but the hundreds of thousands who went AWOL from it.
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Old 10-11-2011, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Willow Spring and Mocksville
275 posts, read 396,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_k_k View Post
Most people, I think, develop very skewed views of their own pasts by leaving out inconvenient details....In the end, this seems very human. Thus, I am not at all surprised that neo-Confederates try very hard to avoid the reality that the main weakness of the Confederate military was not lack of supply, but the hundreds of thousands who went AWOL from it.
I agree. Most people do prefer "sound bites". The only Neo-Confederates I have any experience with are Neo-Confederate Civil War Reenactors, and while they are a definite minority within that hobby, they are a stridently vocal one. What I find ironic is that they are a group of people who love to tout their superior historical knowledge and dedication to "educating the public"; and who continually howl about "northern propaganda". Ironically, much of what they disseminate is little more than propaganda itself.
I find their simplistic image of all Southrons boldly standing shoulder-to-shoulder in stalwart defiance of the infernal Blue-coated foe to be much less interesting than the reality. At least in North Carolina, there were widely varying levels of commitment to the Confederate cause, ranging from dedicated to decidedly lukewarm. Opposition to the Confederacy ranged from actively subversive to passive, i.e. avoiding conscription, hiding supplies, harboring deserters, etc. Loyalty was a fluid thing, particularly as the war progressed. There were many complex dynamics, including family, local community, and economics. I suspect that many people just wanted to be left alone by both sides.
I am a Southerner and have quite a few ancestors who fought ( and some died) for the Confederacy. While I am intensely interested in their service, I feel no need to justify their actions or to revise history. They were who they were, not what I want them to have been. After talking to some of the aforementioned Neo's, I get the feeling that their views have more to do with modern politics than history. Disenchanted or frustrated with the modern government and society, they seem to be using their carefully constructed image of the Confederacy as some sort of rebellious proxy.
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