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Old 11-27-2011, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Burnsville, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
This is really a nonsensical question, given the history of genocide outside the Eurosphere before Columbus or DeGama ever set sail. Aztecs and Incas subjugated others, Native Americans committed their own genocide, the Zulus conquered every tribe they encountered, the Arabs committed atrocity after atrocity before Tamberlane swept into the Fertile Crescent, and even the Maoris wiped out the Chatham Islanders upon discovering their existence. So to sit here and say that Europeans is somehow unique completely ignores history.

In fact, I would offer that European civilization, while more efficient in killing, also became the agent of a more humane and civilized world. Europeans ended the slave trade, ended lots of tribal warfare, introduced the rule of law and a host of other social innovations that made the world a safer place to live.
While I know that Europeans aren't the only group who have done oppressive and genocidal acts, most people seem to only focus or recognize the acts that whites committed. In other words, people only seem to know of the bad things past whites did and only the whites. I think it's just because of the long history (five centuries) of European oppression. Although I'm sure Native American tribes oppressed each other for centuries too.

 
Old 11-27-2011, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Burnsville, Minnesota
2,699 posts, read 2,411,413 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
This is really a nonsensical question, given the history of genocide outside the Eurosphere before Columbus or DeGama ever set sail. Aztecs and Incas subjugated others, Native Americans committed their own genocide, the Zulus conquered every tribe they encountered, the Arabs committed atrocity after atrocity before Tamberlane swept into the Fertile Crescent, and even the Maoris wiped out the Chatham Islanders upon discovering their existence. So to sit here and say that Europeans is somehow unique completely ignores history.

In fact, I would offer that European civilization, while more efficient in killing, also became the agent of a more humane and civilized world. Europeans ended the slave trade, ended lots of tribal warfare, introduced the rule of law and a host of other social innovations that made the world a safer place to live.
I can agree with you there since Europeans have invented or discovered things throughout the many years.
 
Old 11-27-2011, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Burnsville, Minnesota
2,699 posts, read 2,411,413 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
The OP implies, but does not state, that the oppression of the last five centuries was at the hands of Europeans only. The Rwandan genocide has already been mentioned, but even going back much earlier, there were some Africans who sold others into slavery, and there were some native American tribes which brutally dominated and oppressed other tribes. Over time, Rwanda excepted, the scale, especially geographically, of European oppression of others was greater.

An exception would be the vicious and murderous oppression of other Asians by Imperial Japan in the first half of the 20th century. Just ask the Chinese, the Koreans, the Indonesians, the Filipinos, or the Burmese about that. The oppression of Asians by European countries was like a Kindergarten picnic compared with that of their Japanese colonial masters. Enormous bitterness about it persists to this day.
Good point!
 
Old 11-27-2011, 08:14 PM
Status: " Charleston South Carolina" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: home...finally, home .
8,816 posts, read 21,282,976 times
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In fact, I would offer that European civilization, while more efficient in killing, also became the agent of a more humane and civilized world. Europeans ended the slave trade, ended lots of tribal warfare, introduced the rule of law and a host of other social innovations that made the world a safer place to live.

I wonder how much climate is a factor.
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Old 11-27-2011, 08:38 PM
 
28,895 posts, read 54,165,927 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by City Data Guy View Post
While I know that Europeans aren't the only group who have done oppressive and genocidal acts, most people seem to only focus or recognize the acts that whites committed. In other words, people only seem to know of the bad things past whites did and only the whites. I think it's just because of the long history (five centuries) of European oppression. Although I'm sure Native American tribes oppressed each other for centuries too.
Perhaps literacy has something to do with matters.
 
Old 11-27-2011, 10:12 PM
 
23,601 posts, read 70,436,018 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by City Data Guy View Post
Since 1492, Europeans and people of European descent have enslaved, wiped out, and oppressed Africans, Asians, and Native Americans. Millions of Native Americans were killed by diseases spread by Columbus and his crew. Europeans enslaved Africans for two centuries and still mistreated them for another century after slavery was abolished. Europe set up colonies in Africa and Asia, controlling their daily lives. They have been responsible for quite a few genocides; the genocide of Native Americans and the Holocaust come to mind. What caused all of this? What causes one group of humans to mistreat other groups of humans for such a long period of time?
First, the disease angle is a misdirection. The Europeans lived in a filthier culture that had a broader base of possible diseases. Had it been the other way around, the Native Americans would have wiped out the Europeans instead of just giving them the clap and tobacco. The millions of Native Americans killed by disease was going to happen, given the state of medicine. It might have happened a little slower had not there been intentional distribution of smallpox, but the end result would have been similar.

Europeans CONTINUED the enslavement of Africans, but slavery and genocide already had a long tradition there. Africans have done, and still do, a great job at mistreating each other. We simply are not pounded with relentless reports on that given what passes for "news" to this generation. Liberia was an experiment that went wrong then imploded and imploded again. Somalia is a disaster. You can go right down through the list of countries to find recent obscene actions that are totally home grown.

India never used to have a severe population problem before the Brits came in. They simply killed children and expected widows to kill themselves. It took the Brits to say "Don't kill your infants."

The South Seas were no paradise. Cannibalism and genocide were regular occurrences. Cook got to experience the dark side firsthand.

What you are perceiving as a "European" failing is more a failing of a Eurocentric history system and media. Certainly the Europeans were no saints. For that matter, we are no saints today, preaching democracy while removing the democratically elected government in Iran to install the shah, allowing the real source of terrorists - the Wahabi sect in Saudi land to oppress anyone as long as the oil flows, playing countries against each other while using world trade to strip resources and impoverish nations.

"What causes one group of humans to mistreat other groups of humans for such a long period of time?"

Religious bigotry is probably right at the top of the list, and just about all religions get included in that.

Lack of education of ALL involved comes second. I don't mean an education of memorizing the Koran or knowing how to selectively quote Biblical Passages, or divine hidden truths in the Talmud, or the relationship of Hinduism to Buddhism. I mean education in basic physics, world history, math and most importantly - critical thinking. As long as humanity groups itself into superstitious clans, it will fight and oppress. If it can ever get a greater goal that the majority of humans can get behind, there will be a reduction in the excesses. It'll never go away fully though.

Third is lack of resources. There has been a respite for a few years since agriculture has been turned into a science. That may or may not last. Continuing population growth and reduction of tillable land, stripping the oceans of fish, and other short term follies will come back to haunt humanity. Greece might have expanded outward in part because goats and sheep denuded what land they had left after poisoning it with crude lead smelters, but we are reaching the ends of agricultural growth on the entire globe.
 
Old 11-28-2011, 04:06 AM
 
1,569 posts, read 2,044,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by City Data Guy View Post
Since 1492, Europeans and people of European descent have enslaved, wiped out, and oppressed Africans, Asians, and Native Americans. Millions of Native Americans were killed by diseases spread by Columbus and his crew. Europeans enslaved Africans for two centuries and still mistreated them for another century after slavery was abolished. Europe set up colonies in Africa and Asia, controlling their daily lives. They have been responsible for quite a few genocides; the genocide of Native Americans and the Holocaust come to mind. What caused all of this? What causes one group of humans to mistreat other groups of humans for such a long period of time?
All humans of all races and cultures have mistreated other humans - Europeans simply had vastly more power and were therefore able to do a lot more of it.

You have a rather myopic view of history and humanity if you believe otherwise.

Now, theories on way Europeans became so much more powerful are nearly endless. I've always gone with the lots of cultures packed into a tiny space theory - meant more competition - and competition results in technological advancement, and technology rules the day
 
Old 11-28-2011, 05:30 AM
 
13,496 posts, read 18,195,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
...In fact, I would offer that European civilization, while more efficient in killing, also became the agent of a more humane and civilized world. Europeans ended the slave trade, ended lots of tribal warfare, introduced the rule of law and a host of other social innovations that made the world a safer place to live.
Yes, but....

The slavery that was most affected by the Europeans ending the slave trade was the enormous slave trade across to the Western Hemisphere, which the Europeans themselves had started and sustained.

Ending tribal warfare sounds good. But tribal wars usually do not kill large numbers of people as compared to the wars waged by the European nations, which were able to maintain standing armies.

The rule of law? Is there a people who do not have a rule of law, you mean rule of European law. And European law assumes a European type of society, so hand-in-hand with this "gift" goes the destruction of any native social and cultural institutions that do not accomodate it. The gift was a culture-killer as much as it was a benison.

I think your summary (the quote) sketches a thoroughly Kiplingesque picture:

"Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child...."
 
Old 11-28-2011, 01:04 PM
 
28,895 posts, read 54,165,927 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevxu View Post
Yes, but....

The slavery that was most affected by the Europeans ending the slave trade was the enormous slave trade across to the Western Hemisphere, which the Europeans themselves had started and sustained.

Ending tribal warfare sounds good. But tribal wars usually do not kill large numbers of people as compared to the wars waged by the European nations, which were able to maintain standing armies.

The rule of law? Is there a people who do not have a rule of law, you mean rule of European law. And European law assumes a European type of society, so hand-in-hand with this "gift" goes the destruction of any native social and cultural institutions that do not accomodate it. The gift was a culture-killer as much as it was a benison.

I think your summary (the quote) sketches a thoroughly Kiplingesque picture:

"Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child...."
That is a ridiculous post, given how slavery has been around as long as there have been historical records. Every ancient civilization was a slave-owning civilization. And it wasn't until Wilberforce began inveighing against it in the 18th Century that anyone took it's outlawing seriously. Not only did the Royal Navy end the international slave trade via ship, but the European colonial powers outlawed it in their territories. To be sure, there was still massive exploitation, but it sure wasn't slavery and, over time, colonial governments became more and more attuned to the welfare of the people. To me, the greatest crime of colonialism wasn't colonialism itself, but rather the suave qui peut of the colonial powers after World War II, leaving behind native populations unready to govern themselves.

Your assertion regarding tribal warfare is equally nonsensical. Archeologists have found plenty of evidence of widespread slaughter and absorption throughout the Americas. What your remark addresses is more a function of a lack of documentation than anything. There were no historians following the Aztecs or Incas around. There was no written account of the Zulus as they swept through southern Africa. To me, the endless atrocities of Africa and Asia during the post-colonial period are pretty good indicators of what conditions were like before the English, French, Belgians, Dutch, and Portuguese arrived on the scene, albeit with automatic weapons.

The point you make about 'rule of law' is also a bit of a head scratcher. I'd like you to show me anyone on the planet who is apathetic to the notion of keeping personal property safe from arbitrary imprisonment or confiscation of property. Show me any Indian woman who would voluntarily go back to the suffering of purdah after her husband died. And given how the rule of law is a necessary factor for any kind of accumulation of societal wealth, the benefits of better health, longer lives, better education, more material prosperity, and a host of other boons almost require laws not based on the whim of an emir or a tribal shaman. The western powers were wealthier and technologically more powerful as a result of their law, not despite it.
 
Old 11-28-2011, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,588 posts, read 84,818,250 times
Reputation: 115126
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
This is really a nonsensical question, given the history of genocide outside the Eurosphere before Columbus or DeGama ever set sail. Aztecs and Incas subjugated others, Native Americans committed their own genocide, the Zulus conquered every tribe they encountered, the Arabs committed atrocity after atrocity before Tamberlane swept into the Fertile Crescent, and even the Maoris wiped out the Chatham Islanders upon discovering their existence. So to sit here and say that Europeans is somehow unique completely ignores history.

In fact, I would offer that European civilization, while more efficient in killing, also became the agent of a more humane and civilized world. Europeans ended the slave trade, ended lots of tribal warfare, introduced the rule of law and a host of other social innovations that made the world a safer place to live.
I think it's also that Europeans had better boats and so traveled further. The conviction that their culture and religion was superior had to have played a part.

Also, in the OP, I found "Columbus and his crew spreading disease" to be an oddity--no one back then knew about germs or the lack of immunity to Europeans diseases of the indigenous people.
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