Is there anyone here who sided with the Viet Minh/North Vietnam during the War? (Mexican, 80's)

[Trimac20]

And would still support them today?

While both sides were responsible for many atrocities, and the war itself was a total waste and a travesty, I think I probably side more with the North Vietnamese Communists/Vietcong whatever. The Vietnamese socialist government doesn't seem too bad, although I'm not sure what it's like to actually live there (I've only visited), at least not as bad as what Mao and the Communists in China did. I'm not really a Communist but I think it was paranoia about their own situation/the reds that America went into Vietnam. What they did to the country/people is criminal, as well as their own American citizens, and the fact that they basically left the country in ruins.

I'm not American, although Australian troops also fought in Vietnam, but I'm glad the Viet Minh 'won' the war, or the Americans didn't succeed in getting their puppet government into power. The fact they hypocritically supported the French colonialists also shows they didn't really care about giving the Vietnamese people freedom.

[Dd714]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

And would still support them today?

While both sides were responsible for many atrocities, and the war itself was a total waste and a travesty, I think I probably side more with the North Vietnamese Communists/Vietcong whatever. The Vietnamese socialist government doesn't seem too bad, although I'm not sure what it's like to actually live there (I've only visited), at least not as bad as what Mao and the Communists in China did. I'm not really a Communist but I think it was paranoia about their own situation/the reds that America went into Vietnam. What they did to the country/people is criminal, as well as their own American citizens, and the fact that they basically left the country in ruins.

I'm not American, although Australian troops also fought in Vietnam, but I'm glad the Viet Minh 'won' the war, or the Americans didn't succeed in getting their puppet government into power. The fact they hypocritically supported the French colonialists also shows they didn't really care about giving the Vietnamese people freedom.

You and Jane Fonda I guess.

The Vietnamese communist government of today is not the Vietnames communist government of the mid-70s. You can hardly compare the two - after the south was overrun, hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese left the country in bathtubs (many drowned) to escape certain execution, hundreds of thousands more were sent to "re-education camps" to face torture, starvation, and brainwashing, the Peoples Republic of Vietnam underwent another decade of wars with it's neighbors, and the economy collapsed under the burden of the communist economic policies.

Then came the free trade reforms in the late 80's and the removal of the old guard/Ho Chi Mihn cronies. In a sense, capitalism did win the war in the end. It only took 3 decades. You can hardly label the government as communist anymore.

But, read a bit about vietnam re-education camps before you say something like "they didn't seem to bad". Bet you wear a Che tshirt as well (because nothing says "hip" like commemerating a massmurderer).

[jtur88]

Abstractions like freedom and liberty were not issues. It was a war between the Capitalist Empire and the Socialist Empire for the right to exploit the labor and resources and future consumer markets of Southeast Asia to buttress the empires' own dreams of world domination, regardless of how many innocent bystanders had to be burned alive in the process.

I objected to such wars then, and I still do. I will always side with civilians cowering in their own homes, in the face of the brutal firepower of aggressors who come across an ocean to exploit them.

Dd714, tell me who Che Guevara "massmurdered". Compared to the number that John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson "massmurdered" in Vietnam.

[Dd714]

Originally Posted by jtur88

Dd714, tell me who Che Guevara "massmurdered". Compared to the number that John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson "massmurdered" in Vietnam.

I have no intention of arguing about the Vietnam war, but only to mention it as a noble but misguided war by US leaders. Any war and armed conflict will results in deaths and that is understood. If you want to call them massmurders that is up to you. But I don't want to direct the topic there.

But the difference is that I don't think anyone can argue that Kennedy and Johnson engaged in war for the sole purpose and/or enjoyment of killing. Che on the other hand, was Castro's henchman, his executioner. He killed, murdered, arguably for the sake of killing. For the adrenaline rush, the sense of power, the entitlement. He enjoyed the act, he enjoyed the victims pleas for mercy, he enjoyed parading the victims family to the death scene. This is documented in not only his writings, but his actions. There is credible evidence that he was psychopathic.

But that was not the purpose of the Che comment. It's almost an ironic joke that the image of Che is recreated on tshirts throughout the world and has become a pop icon with the young ignorant "hip" crowd. You see it at rock concerts - even though Che condemed the rock and roll movement and would certainly have fans imprisoned or executed; You see it at anti-capital punishment gatherings - although obviously Che was pro capital punishment; you see it at gay movement demonstratiions - although, again, he would imprison and execute gays. Wearing a Che tshirt is about the same as wearing a Charles Manson tshirt. It was my way of saying to the OP - learn and read about history. Don't assume - Vietnam good/US bad, just based on what you hear from friends or that pony-tailed high school teacher. Certainly, there are two sides to every story.

[BlackShoe]

Originally Posted by Dd714

It's almost an ironic joke that the image of Che is recreated on tshirts throughout the world and has become a pop icon with the young ignorant "hip" crowd. You see it at rock concerts - even though Che condemed the rock and roll movement and would certainly have fans imprisoned or executed; You see it at anti-capital punishment gatherings - although obviously Che was pro capital punishment; you see it at gay movement demonstratiions - although, again, he would imprison and execute gays. Wearing a Che tshirt is about the same as wearing a Charles Manson tshirt.

Not mentioned was the overt racism of Guevara. Rather amusing to see radical Hispanics involved in the Reconquista and Atzlan nonsense wearing Che T-shirts. If they were aware of his opinion of Mexicans and Blacks they might take them off. Cannot quote them here, likely mod deletion if I did. If curious, just do a search on Che quotes. Ernesto "Che" Guevara, the psycopathic, sadistic, cold blooded Communist killer, the man who once trained to be a medical doctor. Now an icon of the planet's misguided youth. How sad and how ironic.

[Boompa]

My first tour there was in 1963 and at that time the Viet Cong, National Liberation Front was not entirely Communist. Many Religious Groups such as the Cao Dai and Hoa Hoi were at odds with the Government which was largely made up of Catholics from Hanoi and Hai Phong in the North.
At one point the Cao Dai Militia chased the ARVN to the edge of Saigon. These groups eventually merged into the VietCong and were taken over by the Communists. By my second tour in 1966-67 the northern cadres ran the show.

[totsuka]

If we had to do it again I wish we never got involved with Vietnam back in 1945. The Communists would have taken over in the 1950's after the French left but eventually, they would have failed since their economic system is a failure.

[jtur88]

Originally Posted by BlackShoe

Not mentioned was the overt racism of Guevara. Rather amusing to see radical Hispanics involved in the Reconquista and Atzlan nonsense wearing Che T-shirts. If they were aware of his opinion of Mexicans and Blacks they might take them off. Cannot quote them here, likely mod deletion if I did. If curious, just do a search on Che quotes. Ernesto "Che" Guevara, the psycopathic, sadistic, cold blooded Communist killer, the man who once trained to be a medical doctor. Now an icon of the planet's misguided youth. How sad and how ironic.

Revolutionaries always seem brutal to the supporters of the other side. Che did not have state of the art technological weaponry to carry out blanket slaughters of entire inconvenient villages. His revolution was fought on the ground, but at least the Cuban revolutionaries were fighting for their own country.

When facing an opposition that can destroy you, you do what you have to do to win. When playing to win, you cannot afford the luxury of mercy on your enemies. Americans do not understand the concept of fighting a war to win. When the Americans get into a war, they can simply quit and go home, with nothing to lose. It's not the same as when fighting on the ground of your own country.

If you had been Cuban swinging a machete in the cane fields, would you have sided with Che/Fidel, or with Batista? If you had been a Vietnamese villager, would you have taken up arms for Ho, or for another White superpower coming in to replace the French?

[BlackShoe]

No excuses for the actions of Guevara. After Cuba was secure for Castro what the hell was he doing going off killing people and fermenting so called revolutions in Africa and Latin America? Che was considered so unstable and undisiplined that the Soviets abandoned him. The KGB deemed him unreliable and cut him loose. Toward the end even Fidel started cooling toward him. In his final foray in Bolivia he got no support whatsover from the Bolivian Communist Party. The poor peasants he was supposed to inspire and organize ignored and feared him. His tiny group became nothing more than a group of starving, disease ridden, rag clad band of common bandits. So much for the image of the heroic, handsome, idealistic fighter, battling evil oppressors for the rights of the common man.

[Dd714]

Originally Posted by jtur88

If you had been Cuban swinging a machete in the cane fields, would you have sided with Che/Fidel, or with Batista? If you had been a Vietnamese villager, would you have taken up arms for Ho, or for another White superpower coming in to replace the French?

I would have sided with anyone that would promise a better life for my family and myself. In both Cuba and Vietnam, that meant hundreds of thousands of middle class families fleeing the country once the communist took power. For the poor, Ho and Fidel promissed prosperity, and failed. The poor remained poor, the only difference is they also made the rich poor except for the small group of leaders of the countries. Ho (or his followers after his death) and Fidel however retained power with all the brutal means at their disposal so as to quench any possible additional reveloution once the poor realized the Townsend cry of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

But it's ironic that Vietnam didn't improve due to revolution, but evolution. Ho is dead and his revolution died a decade or so after him, Fidel lives on - and so does Cuba's poverty. North Korea and Cuba are the only remnants left on this planet of the failed communist model. Once Fidel dies, lets hope that Cuba can evolve as well. North Korea, well I guess they will remain to live as a stone age country with nukes.