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Old 01-09-2012, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
as patton once said, montys problem is that he was more concerned about not losing rather than winning. a few times during world war two, monty pushed for plans that allowed large parts of the german army to escape being cut off and destroyed. for instance at sicily had the allies gone with pattons plan, the germany army that was on sicily would have been cut off and destroyed. after the break out from normandy, there was another opportunity to cut off and destroy a large part of the german army, and again monty nixed the plan on the fear that british and american soldiers would be shooting at each other rather than at the germans.

monty was not a bad commander, but he was far from a good one.

That is just not true. Are you basing this off the film Patton?

Montgomery was not in command of the Sicily operation only the 8th Army. Topographical map and disposition of German forces tells the story on that campaign.

In France, Bradley ordered Patton not to advance to close the gap. Official history by Blumenson(sp?) details the episode. DECISION AT ARGENTAN
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Old 01-09-2012, 07:13 PM
 
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Monty kept bugging Ike to let him make a single thrust into Germany and Patton also wanted to do it. Thats the only reason he pushed to get Market Garden so he could have all the Glory. He did not save the Battle of the Bulge as it only took him a month to decide to attack. We were lucky Patton had the guts to send his army and attack right away or who knows what would have happened at Bastone. Do you really think they could have held on for a month waiting for Monty ? And I still believe Rommel would have easily won in North Africa if had the supplies he needed. I believe at the second El Alimein Monty had about 900 tanks to Rommel's less then 150. And at the Rhine crossings he tried to hold up the US ninth army as Simpson the comander had to complain to Ike to get Monty to let the Ninth army cross as they were all ready to cross and Monty told them to wait. He wanted to get the credit of crossing first. He was lucky to even have the ninth army as Ike lent the ninth army to his 21'st army group when it should have been with the 12'th army group. And then we he says Market Garden was a sucsess !!! Yea come on. He just would never admit when he was wrong. He might have been the best the British had but he did not show much to me. I like the way one US general put it as he said if we would have let Monty plan the drive into Germany that we may have eventually won but we would still be fighting now. Ron
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Old 01-09-2012, 07:31 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 383man View Post
..............I like the way one US general put it as he said if we would have let Monty plan the drive into Germany that we may have eventually won but we would still be fighting now. Ron

It sounds as though several well argued and well written posts here weren't even considered by you. It seems you have a point of view and that's that.
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Old 01-09-2012, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 383man View Post
Monty kept bugging Ike to let him make a single thrust into Germany and Patton also wanted to do it. Thats the only reason he pushed to get Market Garden so he could have all the Glory. He did not save the Battle of the Bulge as it only took him a month to decide to attack. We were lucky Patton had the guts to send his army and attack right away or who knows what would have happened at Bastone. Do you really think they could have held on for a month waiting for Monty ? And I still believe Rommel would have easily won in North Africa if had the supplies he needed. I believe at the second El Alimein Monty had about 900 tanks to Rommel's less then 150. And at the Rhine crossings he tried to hold up the US ninth army as Simpson the comander had to complain to Ike to get Monty to let the Ninth army cross as they were all ready to cross and Monty told them to wait. He wanted to get the credit of crossing first. He was lucky to even have the ninth army as Ike lent the ninth army to his 21'st army group when it should have been with the 12'th army group. And then we he says Market Garden was a sucsess !!! Yea come on. He just would never admit when he was wrong. He might have been the best the British had but he did not show much to me. I like the way one US general put it as he said if we would have let Monty plan the drive into Germany that we may have eventually won but we would still be fighting now. Ron
Monty commanded the northern portion of the Ardennes bulge. Southern portion under Bradley to Patton. So the rest of the argument above regarding Bastogne is mute.

Underlined portion above: A good general knows to weaken his enemy first or to have overwhelming superiority to win a battle and so not weaken his forces for the breakthrough otherwise it is just a Pyhrric victory. Rommel actually did attack Monty twice in North Africa and Rommel was strong at the point of attack but Ultra provided advance notice of the location and he was repulsed.

As for the rest Monty did grow a massive ego which is unfortunate. No defending that. Market Garden would either succeed or fail- no half measures.
Crossing the Rhine in the north in 1945 was immaterial as Berlin was no longer the Allied objective by the time the Rhine west back was reached.

What strikes me regarding the Med and ETO is how Monty did not waste his soldiers lives as other British and U.S. commanders did. (Have not read on the French)

Monty did need a U.S. Army for his group much as Patch required a French army to fill out his OOB. Nothing strange there. Monty was land commander for the first few months of Normandy when things were most danagerous and confused with Bradley as his subordinate. I do not see your argument on that one?

I do not deal in fiction, aka alternative history, so the Rommel vs. Monty all thing being equal just does not occur.It is just a WAG.

Last edited by Felix C; 01-09-2012 at 09:04 PM..
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
It sounds as though several well argued and well written posts here weren't even considered by you. It seems you have a point of view and that's that.


I guess you are right but thats what this is all about getting everyone's point of veiw. I know many times people see the same thing but have different views of it. Same here. Yes I think Monty was not a very good general and liked to brag on himself. But thats just my opinion and I like to here everyone else's opinion as that what it all about. And hopefully we dont get mad and try to respect the opinions. But I just cant see how anyone can say Monty did much in the Battle of the Bulge as he did not attack until in January and from what I understand Ike did most of the troop movement like sending the 101st airborne to Bastone and the 7th armered to St Vith. At least thats the way I understood it. Thats just the picture I got of it from what I have read. Ron
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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^^No. A discussion is only worthwhile if both parties bring information. You ignored many facts and probably need to read more or listen to those who are better read.
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:40 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
I think that Montgomery was an awfully good set-piece commander. I think his failing at Market Garden was that it wasn't his style of campaign. As a result, XXX Corps really didn't move up the Arnhem road with any degree of urgency, even after the Nijmegen bridge was captured.
My knowledge is mostly from the movie/bookonwhichitwasbased, and from some online discussions - but my impression is that XXX corps really couldn't move any faster - and that the problems with Market Garden were A. Ignoring the intell on German armor strength near Arnhem and B. The generally overreach of the whole campaign - more than an armored thrust, paradrop operations rely on a whole range of factors, and are intrinsically vulnerable - the Market Garden plan, relying XXX corps to come up a single, vulnerable road, on (unreliable) gliders, on quick movements from drop zones to bridge sites, etc, etc was intrinsically a cast of the dice against unfavorable odds.
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:11 PM
 
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Monty kept bugging Ike to let him make a single thrust into Germany and Patton also wanted to do it. Thats the only reason he pushed to get Market Garden so he could have all the Glory.
No, I just don't see it that way. All of the sector commanders were arguing for a thrust in order to keep the pressure on the Germans and possibly end the war in 1944. The Allies had major supply issues and while they could continue the broad front advance it was going to be very slow going. They had enough supplies for one good thrust and it was decided that Monty's sector had the best shot do to its easier supply situation do to being along the coast and closer to the ports.

There were a couple other reasons the plan was utlimately chosen. Ike was under pressure to use the airborne troops again. They had performed very well in Normandy and were now sitting in England unused and represented a great expense to train and equip them. Both the American and British governments wanted to see them used. Monty was under pressure as well as the V2 rocket bases were all in his sector and Churchill wanted something done about it.

Monty had planned an earlier airborne strike, Operation Comet, that was smaller in scope and got called off do to bad weather and lack of readiness. Market Garden was an expanded Comet that everyone was under pressure to try. Even then Ike only gave it marginal priority for supply and continued the general broad front approach. Market Garden was not an Allied "all in" effort.

Quote:
He did not save the Battle of the Bulge as it only took him a month to decide to attack. We were lucky Patton had the guts to send his army and attack right away or who knows what would have happened at Bastone. Do you really think they could have held on for a month waiting for Monty ?
Monty inherited a disorganized American Army Group that was fighting piecemeal efforts across their sectors with no coherent plan of defense or attack. He stabilized the entire front, organized the units into an effective defensive front and began planning for an offensive. The Germans credit Monty with being the primary reason their offensive was stalled.

Monty also did not delay going on the offensive for a month, he delayed for 2 days. He was not ordered to begin a counterattack until January 1st, he waited until the weather cleared on January 3rd to launch the assault. Monty did not believe in attacking until he felt his troops were in the most advantageous position for doing so.

Quote:
And I still believe Rommel would have easily won in North Africa if had the supplies he needed. I believe at the second El Alimein Monty had about 900 tanks to Rommel's less then 150.
I've said it repeatedly on this board...a good commander works with what he has. Rommel threw away countless victories by going "a dune too far". Rommels position is what it is and Monty exploited every advantage he had to beat him.

Quote:
And at the Rhine crossings he tried to hold up the US ninth army as Simpson the comander had to complain to Ike to get Monty to let the Ninth army cross as they were all ready to cross and Monty told them to wait. He wanted to get the credit of crossing first. He was lucky to even have the ninth army as Ike lent the ninth army to his 21'st army group when it should have been with the 12'th army group.
Monty followed the plan for the Rhine crossings that was laid out at the Malta Conference. Operation Plunder and Varsity were to be the main crossings and led by Monty. Ike added additional southern crossings later and Monty had to wait until they were ready to launch. In the meantime, Patton gained a crossing in the south ahead of schedule and the Bridge at Remagen had been taken, so the Allies were across the Rhine before the major operations called for it. Monty executed Plunder and Varsity according to plan and the Americans were very much a part of the operation, even if Monty placed more importance on getting pictures of him and Churchill landing on the east bank of the Rhine.

Quote:
And then we he says Market Garden was a sucsess !!! Yea come on. He just would never admit when he was wrong.
What was he supposed to say? We wasted the lives of countless thousands in a failed attempt or just focus on the objectives that were taken. To his credit he admits that he failed to anticipate the level of German resistance. He also states that the Allies overall did not devote enough resource to guarantee the success, all of which are true. He then goes on to state that "90% of the objectives were meant". In reality they were. All of the objectives of Market Garden with the exception of the bridge at Arnhem were achieved.
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:20 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
All of the objectives of Market Garden with the exception of the bridge at Arnhem were achieved.

Im not down on monty like others here, but isnt that a bit disingenous? I mean a wargamers "I got 90% of the victory points" The goal was to get across the rhine and into the Ruhr. Without Arnhem, what does Nijmegaen or Eindhoven do you for militarily? Doesnt even get the V weapon bases, does it? I mean they are worth something, but far less than 90%.
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:46 PM
 
14,781 posts, read 38,466,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
Im not down on monty like others here, but isnt that a bit disingenous? I mean a wargamers "I got 90% of the victory points" The goal was to get across the rhine and into the Ruhr. Without Arnhem, what does Nijmegaen or Eindhoven do you for militarily? Doesnt even get the V weapon bases, does it? I mean they are worth something, but far less than 90%.
Well, that was Monty's assessment and if taken in strict terms he did check off 90% of the victory point boxes. He was roundly criticized by the other Allied generals over Market Garden and deservingly so. The operation was a failure, but I was trying to paint it from the perspective of personal accountability versus needing to say what you have to say. I don't think Monty considered it a great success, but I think it would have been ridiculous for him to say it. Ike never said Market Garden was a failure either and Churchill used the word "success" before Monty did.

Market Garden was a bold idea that Ike later stated he insisted upon do to the amazing chance it presented. Some British historians (most of whom consider it a total failure) frame it this way: "Operation Market Garden accomplished most of what it was designed to accomplish. Nevertheless, by the merciless logic of war, Market Garden was a failure."

FWIW, Market Garden did little to silence the V2's and most likely wouldn't have even if it achieved all of its war aims. The V2's didn't stop raining on London until late March 1945 when the Germans withdrew the V2 units as the Allies crossed the Rhine.
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