Do the Asian countries have a history of the worst war torture? (Japanese, China)
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Perhaps to the Germans the crude and violent ways their vicutms were tortured, not even as part of some official gameplan, *seemed* terrible. Of course it was someone else doing it. Maybe they didn't see it in their own cold and industrial plans.
The only record I see of German's "complaining" of Japanese attrocities was during the Nanking Massacres. The Nazi party member for all of Asia, one John Rabe, along with a handful of other westerners including a few American expats and a few other Germans, created a Safety Zone for civilians and is responsible for saving tens of thousands of lives, sometimes by personal intervention at the risk of there own safety. It seems ironical in retrospect, this guy was a loyal Nazi, he wrote letters to Hitler deploring the attrocities (there was no evidence that Hitler cared, or that he even read them; upon returning to Germany Rabe was interrogated by the Gestapo).
Other than that I can find no evidence that Nazi Germany cared one way or another that it's ally was massacring civilians and unarmed prisoners on a wholesale basis. They did publicize reports of Russian mass grave sights of Slavs and Poles once the Russian front opened up, one must speculate for propoganda purposes as they then turned around and massacred them as well.
The only record I see of German's "complaining" of Japanese attrocities was during the Nanking Massacres. The Nazi party member for all of Asia, one John Rabe, along with a handful of other westerners including a few American expats and a few other Germans, created a Safety Zone for civilians and is responsible for saving tens of thousands of lives, sometimes by personal intervention at the risk of there own safety. It seems ironical in retrospect, this guy was a loyal Nazi, he wrote letters to Hitler deploring the attrocities (there was no evidence that Hitler cared, or that he even read them; upon returning to Germany Rabe was interrogated by the Gestapo).
Other than that I can find no evidence that Nazi Germany cared one way or another that it's ally was massacring civilians and unarmed prisoners on a wholesale basis. They did publicize reports of Russian mass grave sights of Slavs and Poles once the Russian front opened up, one must speculate for propoganda purposes as they then turned around and massacred them as well.
The Danish Jews were warned to leave before the delayed crackdown by a Nazi official, through careful channels too. Perhaps it was because his job was to get the Jews out of Denmark and it worked, or he he assumed something else, but he did tip off officials of the arrests. So perhaps, seperated from the overall influence, individuals can transend them to some degree, even if its to make things easier and along the way saved lives. I believe he was also arrested when recalled to Germany.
Since Russians, Poles and Slavs were all among the undesired, I'd assume propaganda.
For example, I was always told that the Germans would treat American POWs with more respect than the Japanese did during WW2.
There are documented events where Nazis were so disgusted by the Japanese atrocities that they were writing Hitler to tell the Japanese to cool it. (you know you got it bad if this happened). The Japanese also did this to the Chinese as well. This is not something to research if you have a weak stomach. During this period hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians and disarmed soldiers were murdered and 20,000-80,000 men, women and children were raped by soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army.
There were mass groups of psychotic bisexual and pediphile Asian Soldiers raping and killing everyone.
One also as to only look at german treatment of eastern europeans even as decribed by american prisoners to see differences. If you look at now both the germans classify different race its evident but then one can look at great britains treatment if Indians he same. What shocked western world abotu Germany was that it was a western antion that they saw as eaual to their as far a being civil .Its like finding out your cousin is a mass murder verus some guy down the street
One also as to only look at german treatment of eastern europeans even as decribed by american prisoners to see differences. If you look at now both the germans classify different race its evident but then one can look at great britains treatment if Indians he same. What shocked western world abotu Germany was that it was a western antion that they saw as eaual to their as far a being civil .Its like finding out your cousin is a mass murder verus some guy down the street
This is one clear difference between them. To the Japanese, a captive had lost all honor, and as Americans and Brits willingly surrendered, they had forgone any respect already. So it was proper to treat them with such abuse and horror. They had no value or worth by their code. They didn't differenchiate between race or origion since all had shamed themselves. Thus all recieved butchery.
The Nazi's treated captives according to what and who they were. Jews were going to die, no matter how long or short it took. Gypsys essencially didn't have a chance. Others might if they'd repent. But they would still remain lesser in the eyes of the Nazi heirarchy. This extended to POWs as well, Russian and Slavic pows frequently starved to death. Threatment for those they considered 'cousins' like the brits and some americans was 'better' but still awful. They also singled out, when they could (when someone would help them) the Jews among Pow's and treated them differently. Jewish Pow's were urged to throw away their dogtags since they indicated an H for Hebrew.
At the end of the war, after failing to get cooperation, 350 American's were removed from Stalag IXB (one of the most notoriouls Stalag's of the war) based on a few admitting being Jewish, or having 'Jewish sounding names' or 'looking Jewish'. Its also been said that they made showers available to see who was circimcised. When they ran out they went for suspected Catholics, trouble makers, and then whoever was in the wrong place to fill up the 'shipment'. They were sent to a satalite camp of Buchenwald called Berga. There, fed and housed as concentration camp inmates though seperately, they worked with the political prisoners clearing newly blasted tunnels in the mountains for what was to be an underground factory. At least a third died in less than three months, and more on the forced march which followed the evacuation of the camp. When they ran into US troops, the only way they were identified as Americans were the scraps of their uniforms and that they spoke English with American slang.
This was not the rule, but was a last ditch use of the heirarchy of treatment. As the US had a lot of German pow's, part of the reason that it was rare is likely that they believed that equivilant treatment might be given them. But those who had refused to give names were also included in their numbers as punishment.
Sadly, most involved never spoke of it until into the 70's and later, as the US had them sign non-disisclosure documents, but the men had assumed they'd testify at the war crimes trials and gave depositions. But they were scattered and the accuses 'little fish' and politics interceeded as the Soviets became the big bad guys and small fry were given a pass.
Soldiers and slaves, by Roger Cohen is a good book on their ordeal, and Liberators, America's witnesses to the Holocaust by Michael Hirsh tells their story as well.
The subject and their experience was brought to light by a PBS documentary called Berga, Soldiers of another War, available on netflix streaming I think. Charled Guggenheim, who produced it, decided to look for one of his unit who had gone missing, and it was through his efforts of lifting the veil of non-disclosure that the survivors were found and spoke. The few survivors only recieved reperations as survivors of war crimes a few years ago.
For example, I was always told that the Germans would treat American POWs with more respect than the Japanese did during WW2.
That is because Germany and the US had agreements about POWs. Now if a German was captured by the Red Army, it was pretty bad. Many never made it out alive.
Yuuuuup!
And that is from the chinese stand POV.... very very legit observation to how cruel Asians are and can be... SEAsian history lesson of WW2 is a great documentary of that.
Pictures of Japs mowing down the Chinese with a machine guns at the beach area in SG or the impaling of a child / a pregnant woman etc.
Then we have the killing fields of Vietnam... that awesome movie... all true stories.
What about the Chinese themselves in China??? One of the most cruel people on earth... just look at their historical torture devise & methods...
Mercy for them has to come from religion (Buddhism to be specific), not the culture... and when you take the religion from them like in a communist scenario...
How the communist would even murder parents if they think the parents are against their idea, or if you protest against them, they would jail you & take your organs to sell...
and if that country is morally strong... they would be against selfish acts of putting poisons into milk, medicine, cosmetics, any products in fact so as to cut costs; fact is they have products that no one would probably buy if not for how inexpensive through "abused labor" (i.e. child labor) that product is. Even the chinese themselves do not like to have to eat their own products... my "chinese" friend would tell me not to buy it... so go figure.
- fr. a SEAsian who majored in SEAsian WW2 history and have actually visited the "Changi Museum" during the schooling there.
And no, I don't bear any grudge against any Japanese (have quite a few good friends from Japan actually)... just a factual observation.
This is one clear difference between them. To the Japanese, a captive had lost all honor, and as Americans and Brits willingly surrendered, they had forgone any respect already. So it was proper to treat them with such abuse and horror. They had no value or worth by their code. They didn't differenchiate between race or origion since all had shamed themselves. Thus all recieved butchery.
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Was there anything in the Code of Bushido which covered the savage murder and inhuman treatment of non combatants?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hueyeats
Yuuuuup!
And that is from the chinese stand POV.... very very legit observation to how cruel Asians are and can be... SEAsian history lesson of WW2 is a great documentary of that.
Pictures of Japs mowing down the Chinese with a machine guns at the beach area in SG or the impaling of a child / a pregnant woman etc.
Then we have the killing fields of Vietnam... that awesome movie... all true stories.
What about the Chinese themselves in China??? One of the most cruel people on earth... just look at their historical torture devise & methods...
Mercy for them has to come from religion (Buddhism to be specific), not the culture... and when you take the religion from them like in a communist scenario...
How the communist would even murder parents if they think the parents are against their idea, or if you protest against them, they would jail you & take your organs to sell...
and if that country is morally strong... they would be against selfish acts of putting poisons into milk, medicine, cosmetics, any products in fact so as to cut costs; fact is they have products that no one would probably buy if not for how inexpensive through "abused labor" (i.e. child labor) that product is. Even the chinese themselves do not like to have to eat their own products... my "chinese" friend would tell me not to buy it... so go figure.
- fr. a SEAsian who majored in SEAsian WW2 history and have actually visited the "Changi Museum" during the schooling there.
And no, I don't bear any grudge against any Japanese (have quite a few good friends from Japan actually)... just a factual observation.
I suppose the punishments of both the Ancient world and Middle Ages in the Europe and Middle East were kind in comparison?
Sadism and brutality knows no ethnic identity. I agree Asia has seen some horrific large-scale torture regimes - Japanese during WWII, Pol Pot, to an extent Communist China and North Korea, but equally horrific things have gone on all over the world.
If your point is that Asian culture is innately more cruel/brutal - I disagree.
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