Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You said that few tyrannies could match the Kim's of North Korea. I'm saying that Stalin's tyranny exceeds it. The Kim's are little Stalins, working on a little speck, compared to what Stalin did with the whole Soviet Union.
The Kims go beyond even what Stalin did like three generations of punishment. It is just that North Korea is smaller.
Last edited by Randomstudent; 01-02-2013 at 10:53 AM..
Ever is a hard choice. I think that the Kim regime is definitely in contention. Stalin and Hitler, horrible as they were, gave their supporters powerful and influential nations, although those benefits weren't extended to their enemies. North Korea has no influence and no power, but the people are still suffering under an extremely oppressive regime.
The Kims go beyond even what Stalin did like three generations of punishment. It is just that North Korea is smaller.
Why do you think that?
First of all, what proportion of the population was intentionally killed by the Kims, as opposed to simply perishing through his administrative incompetence? And how reliable is the source of your data? Per capita, there are more Americans incarcerated in prisons than North Koreans.
Second, it is quite possible that American forces killed more North Koreans in the 50s than the Kims have since. A conservatively estimated 2-million civilian deaths in North Korea during the war.
Third, why do you equate murder with tyranny? Tyranny is regulatory control over the lives of the citizenry, without regard to whether any deaths result or how many. One can have a tyranny without a single loss of life. There was not a high level of tyranny in Hitler's Germany -- Aryan Germans who obeyed the laws were fairly free to go about their lives, restricted mostly by the exigencies of war. Hitler did not firebomb Dresden.
Just one tyrannical regime that gets little attention is Paraguay during the reign of "El Supremo" Lopez during the 1860's. He destroyed his country through being stupid and drafted children and old ladies into his army to get massacred. This crisis in Paraguay is actually quite interesting to read about.
First of all, what proportion of the population was intentionally killed by the Kims, as opposed to simply perishing through his administrative incompetence? And how reliable is the source of your data? Per capita, there are more Americans incarcerated in prisons than North Koreans.
Second, it is quite possible that American forces killed more North Koreans in the 50s than the Kims have since. A conservatively estimated 2-million civilian deaths in North Korea during the war.
Third, why do you equate murder with tyranny? Tyranny is regulatory control over the lives of the citizenry, without regard to whether any deaths result or how many. One can have a tyranny without a single loss of life. There was not a high level of tyranny in Hitler's Germany -- Aryan Germans who obeyed the laws were fairly free to go about their lives, restricted mostly by the exigencies of war. Hitler did not firebomb Dresden.
North Korea, punishes babies for crimes their parents committeed.
There are about 150k-200k in basically no return gulags that goes up to 250k when including re-education camps. Not to mention normal prisons. 40% die from malnutrion in these camps. This is out of a population of 25>m that is about twice the incarceration rate of Americans, just in political prisons. So you are wrong per-capita their are far more North Koreans in prison.
The Kims killed 2 million people since the 1990s famine easily. The entire country is shorter. Furthermore incompetance should not be ruled out since that is how Stalin and Mao killed most of their people.
North Korea, punishes babies for crimes their parents committeed.
There are about 150k-200k in basically no return gulags that goes up to 250k when including re-education camps. Not to mention normal prisons. 40% die from malnutrion in these camps. This is out of a population of 25>m that is about twice the incarceration rate of Americans, just in political prisons. So you are wrong per-capita their are far more North Koreans in prison.
The Kims killed 2 million people since the 1990s famine easily. The entire country is shorter. Furthermore incompetance should not be ruled out since that is how Stalin and Mao killed most of their people.
First of all, if you want to go down that road, put Herbert Hoover on your list of murderous tyrants, for all the Americans who died as a result of dust bowl conditions.
Second, even using your numbers, the per-capita number of North Koreans in prison is comparable to the number in the USA. And your numbers, or any numbers, have no reliable basis and you are just picking out conjectural numbers based on dubious reports, and using the highest numbers that best support what you wish were true so you could say your were right.
Third, there are abundant redstaters in these forums (are you one of them?) who believe that American babies ought to be punished by taking their food stamps and subsidized housing and social assistance benefits and medical care away, for their "criminally" irresponsible parents.
First of all, if you want to go down that road, put Herbert Hoover on your list of murderous tyrants, for all the Americans who died as a result of dust bowl conditions.
The dustbowl was largely the result of individual farming practices, not state food distribution networks trying to support an army and reserves that is equal to 40% of the total population.
Second, even using your numbers, the per-capita number of North Koreans in prison is comparable to the number in the USA. And your numbers, or any numbers, have no reliable basis and you are just picking out conjectural numbers based on dubious reports, and using the highest numbers that best support what you wish were true so you could say your were right.
That isn't North Koreans in prison that is North Koreans in political prison. Futhermore, you should research the US incarceration rate. it is about 2.6 million out of 328m or .7% North Korea's political incarceration rate is about 250K out of 24.5m or about 1%. Thus North Korea's political prison incarceration rate is higher the the US total incarceration rate. If you include non political prisoners it goes up more.
Third, there are abundant redstaters in these forums (are you one of them?) who believe that American babies ought to be punished by taking their food stamps and subsidized housing and social assistance benefits and medical care away, for their "criminally" irresponsible parents.
I am as liberal as they come and proudly so. I just call a spade a spade.
I'd have to go with Stalin or Mao in terms of the sheer number of dead subjects that were a direct result of their rule.
They make Hitler look like a wannabe.
I don't know about Mao, but Stalin doesn't qualify. Russian civil war started in 1918 and it lasted (in its cold stage) for at least another 32 years until 1950+/- when the last Ukrainian, Baltic, Caucasian etc. guerrillas were subdued and rebellious ethnic groups that tainted themselves with Nazi collaboration were removed and dispersed. Ukrainian famine also reminds a civil war more than Stalin led genocide, it's mostly Ukrainians themselves who imposed starvation on other Ukrainians who were reserved about collective Farm enterprises. Stalin just saddled up social hatred and blood lust that was brewing for hundreds of years in the Russian Empire. It's hard to say who's more responsible a horse or a jockey.
Last edited by RememberMee; 01-15-2013 at 10:44 AM..
That isn't North Koreans in prison that is North Koreans in political prison. Futhermore, you should research the US incarceration rate. it is about 2.6 million out of 328m or .7% North Korea's political incarceration rate is about 250K out of 24.5m or about 1%. Thus North Korea's political prison incarceration rate is higher the the US total incarceration rate. If you include non political prisoners it goes up more.
First of all, what is the reliability of your NK statistics? Are they from objective sources, or from organizations that have an anti-NK agenda? All I said is that they were "comparable" to the US, and you proved it. Since jail terms are relatively short for most Americans, the number of people who have been incarcerated is probably 5-10 million, much higher than NK. I expect (but don't know) that nearly every crime in NK is classified as "political", in that it is a crime against the state.
Second, how do you feel about living in a country where the risk of going to prison is anywhere near comparable to the risk in North Korea? In both countries, the onesizefitsall solution to inappropriate social behavior is to simply throw the offender into a brutal dungeon and slam the door shut. It is not relevant how they define "inappropriate". For non-political crimes, the USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world, higher than in the most corrupt and crime ridden banana republics, so Americans are fine ones to criticize NK for using incarceration as a tool. The chances that an American "knows somebody" in prison is pretty close the the chance that a North Korean knows somebody in a gulag. I've bailed 3 people out of jail myself, and I have relatives who have done hard time, and I'm not even minority. Private prisons are almost the only growth industry in these times, and every community college is training Corrections Officers.
This is not to defend NK, but to question the legitimacy of accounts of NK, for which we have little more than unsubstantiated claims by angry expatriates with axes to grind. The same kind of reports that convinced us that Iraq had WMDs and led America's president to behavior that would disgust even the Kims, who so far have not bombed any schools or hospitals in countries on other continents, nor hinted at any desire to.
Talking about tyrannical regimes, there are state governors and legislators in the US at this moment, contemplating legal definitions in which the distinction between birth control pills and premeditated homicide is murky.
Last edited by jtur88; 01-16-2013 at 10:54 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
