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In South Africa, the whites took care of making sure there was good agricultural practices that ensured an availability of food, there was a good transportation and energy infrastructure, there was a stable currency to enable the production, import and distribution of commodities, and public health provisions in place to guard against the ravages of epidemics, and regulatied law and order to keep crime rates manageable -- things that didn't exist in countries like Nigeria and Zaire and Tanzania and Ivory Coast, because there was nobody home that had the expertise or the willingness to establish a working social economy. Blacks in RSA benefitted from all of those advantages, which were severely lacking in the black-rule republics.
Your live-free-or-die mentality pales very quickly when you see it at work in a country where you are "free", but governed by a cycle of one dictatorship after another squandering all your national resources and leaving starvation and pestilence in its wake.
I was in almost every country in Africa in the 1970s, down on the ground on the muddy roads and eating nsima every day. Believe me, the blacks in RSA were not bad off at all.
Well, this is the way I see it.
I see it differently. I would rather die than live in apartheid-era South Africa. That is just how I think. And South Africa was basically a dictatorship. Blacks couldn't vote for the most part, and had their citizenship stripped from them. And at least in other African nations, you had the freedom to LEAVE if you so chose to. In South Africa, if you were Black and didn't want to be there, there was no recourse for you. You were restricted to your "homeland" because you had no citizenship in "South Africa". This meant you could only get a passport for your "homeland" and you could only travel into "South Africa". You couldn't travel abroad because your passport was not recognized. At least in the rest of Africa, if you wanted to leave, you could. In fact, alot of Africans who could leave went to the UK, France, The Netherlands, Germany, and even the USA. To me, true freedom is having a say over your life.
In the USA, during Jim Crow, Black people voted with their feet and went to cities like Detroit, Milwaukee, New York, Cleveland, Philadelphia, and some even made it to Canada. At least in America, I have the right to vote with my feet if the quality of life is not what I like. In South Africa, Blacks couldn't do that. Whites could, but Blacks couldn't.
My apologies for intruding. I did not know that this thread was only open to blacks who were adult South Africans in the 1970s. Upon re-reading, I see that it is not open to any discussion at all. The OP just wanted us to look at his photos, but not comment on them. I apparently overstepped the bounds by responding to green-mariner, who violated the thread restrictions, by offering his own comments, which consisted of a remark that he does not appear to be really qualified to make, according to your criteria.
It is obvious to anyone with any sense that there was nothing good about being black under apartheid in South Africa. I've nothing else to say about the matter.
It is obvious to anyone with any sense that there was nothing good about being black under apartheid in South Africa. I've nothing else to say about the matter.
You know this and I know this. However, there are many people who are apologists for apartheid, who try to justify apartheid with stuff like "South Africa had better schools that the rest of Africa" or "It was more stable than the rest of Africa" or "Under the new government, South Africa has become just like any other country in Africa" or some other argument. However, I get a feeling that some people want to say things like "Black people aren't fit to rule any nation" or "Segregation was a good thing because it kept South Africans safe", or some eugenics argument. I get the feeling some people want to say things like that, but don't have the guts to say it.
You know this and I know this. However, there are many people who are apologists for apartheid, who try to justify apartheid with stuff like "South Africa had better schools that the rest of Africa" or "It was more stable than the rest of Africa" or "Under the new government, South Africa has become just like any other country in Africa" or some other argument. However, I get a feeling that some people want to say things like "Black people aren't fit to rule any nation" or "Segregation was a good thing because it kept South Africans safe", or some eugenics argument. I get the feeling some people want to say things like that, but don't have the guts to say it.
Well, a few vile racists out there do say it. I don't know if it's guts or stupidity.
Well, a few vile racists out there do say it. I don't know if it's guts or stupidity.
I don't think it'so much just guts or just stupidity, but probably a mix of both, depending on what context you put it in. People who truly feel like South Africa was better under apartheid and come out and say it have the guts to admit, but they way such persons are thinking isn't what I would call logical, especially when you look at the human rights abuses.
Have fun with your little closed-minded ignorance-admiration society and the personal attacks and generalized epithets that go with it. Exactly what the History Forum has always needed.
Have fun with your little closed-minded ignorance-admiration society and the personal attacks and generalized epithets that go with it. Exactly what the History Forum has always needed.
I'm closed-minded? I'm just looking at the human rights abuses and other kinds of abuses that went on during apartheid. What I'm seeing is an apologetic view apartheid regime. I don't have an apologetic view, especially considering that it did to people, including stripping Black people of their citizenship, giving them the inferior schools compared to Whites, making them carry passbooks, making travel abroad for Blacks almost impossible. Ever wondered why Black South Africans rarely traveled abroad? It has something to do with their passports not being recognized because they basically had passports for places not recognized by anyone else except South Africa. Why is that? Because South Africa basically used the "bantustan" system to corral people into certain places, by force. People were removed from many places by force. Go look up Dimbaza. Many children starved to death as a result of the forced removal, and placed somewhere remote. I'm close-minded? In your eyes I am. I'm just examining apartheid and looking at it from a human rights perspective, and a perspective of "as a Black man, I would have no rights under apartheid". That is how I look at it. I have a personal problem with it. I have to ask myself at the end of the day "What helps ME"?. Saying that the rest of Africa was going under does not justify apartheid in South Africa.
I'm closed-minded? I'm just looking at the human rights abuses and other kinds of abuses that went on during apartheid. What I'm seeing is an apologetic view apartheid regime. I don't have an apologetic view, especially considering that it did to people, including stripping Black people of their citizenship, giving them the inferior schools compared to Whites, making them carry passbooks, making travel abroad for Blacks almost impossible. Ever wondered why Black South Africans rarely traveled abroad? It has something to do with their passports not being recognized because they basically had passports for places not recognized by anyone else except South Africa. Why is that? Because South Africa basically used the "bantustan" system to corral people into certain places, by force. People were removed from many places by force. Go look up Dimbaza. Many children starved to death as a result of the forced removal, and placed somewhere remote. I'm close-minded? In your eyes I am. I'm just examining apartheid and looking at it from a human rights perspective, and a perspective of "as a Black man, I would have no rights under apartheid". That is how I look at it. I have a personal problem with it. I have to ask myself at the end of the day "What helps ME"?. Saying that the rest of Africa was going under does not justify apartheid in South Africa.
Nothing justifies apartheid in South Africa. If saying that makes me closed-minded, and if you consider yourself open-minded, I'll take a closed mind any day.
Nothing justifies apartheid in South Africa. If saying that makes me closed-minded, and if you consider yourself open-minded, I'll take a closed mind any day.
I think you might be talking about the person before me. He was the one who was referring to people like you and I as close-minded.
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