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Because lately I've noticed an interesting trend in Russia; certain things are revised now, when supposedly some "average Russians" received an access to English/ German sources of information and supposedly on *their basis* there is an attempt to repaint Soviet past with different colors, stating that it was not all that different from the West, because the West had its own pitfalls, which haven't been discussed enough and "brought to light." That's how some newspaper snippets all of a sudden become a sensation and a "definite proof" that Soviet system was blamed for certain crimes in vain, it was all "Western propaganda" as usual.
Well, I don't think the Vikings were invited, I think the Chronicle was written that way to put a positive "spin" on what must have been an invasion. "
What invasion? Kiev, the first Russian administrative center was organized by Vikings - no sieges, no blood sheds, no fights - nothing.
But now that you mention it, I have heard that theory, that there was an older blood connection. Nicholas Roerich, the painter, was of Swedish descent. In fact, it's said he could trace his line back to the original Rurik. I think his ancestry goes back to Latvia or Lithuania, and that area had Swedish settlers going far back in time. 800 AD and earlier, I think.
Plenty of famous ( and not so famous) Russians were of foreign ancestry, be that poets or painters, or military commanders. Roerich is not an exception (and I am not sure what it has got to do with his Swedish background, really...);
M.Lermontov ( the famous Russian poet of the 19th century) has his family roots somewhere in Scotland, mentioned somewhere here F.M. K Rokossovsky was born of Polish father - I mean just first examples that come to mind.
Not to mention that half of Russian upper-crust elite that came after Peter the Great was of German origin)))
Wasn't Ukraine originally part of Poland, before the end of WWII?
Not "originally" - originally it was land of Kievan Rus; that's where Russia started.
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Was Belarus originally part of Poland as well? I suspect it was.
Again - not originally, ( originally it belonged to Kievan Russia as well,) but at certain point in history it belonged to Lithuania and then to Poland.
( One of my grand-fathers came from the part of Belorussia that used to belong to Poland (Slutsk I believe?)
Geez, by the way now when I've googled Slutsk - this is what I've found among other things;
I think I have already exhaustively countered all of your claims in previous posts. Since you are no longer presenting any arguments of substance, I can only assume that you have run out of recycled Soviet and communist propaganda. If you want to bring something new to the discussion, feel free.
No, you did not "counter" anything. You attempted to find reasons to stick to your previous propaganda-induced clap-trap. I mean, before I presented newspaper articles, film stills and photos to you, you did not have a clue that the US, UK, Poland, etc. also had "Holodomor", -- so what DISCUSSION one can have with you on the subject you are so profoundly clueless?!
Please, give concise examples of "Soviet communist propaganda" with a link to or at least a direction to a source of such "soviet communist propaganda".
Why are we arguing about the Ukrainian famine? This has been documented in a film on Public Television. It's said Stalin imposed this as a punishment on the Ukrainian people for resisting collectivization, IIRC. He wouldn't allow International Red Cross food relief packages to be delivered to Ukraine. If anyone's interested, they might be able to find the documentary on PBS: Public Broadcasting Service.
We are not arguing about "Ukrainian famine". We are arguing about Western attempt at presenting it as some sort of "Stalin imposed punishment on the Ukrainian people".
1. Famine of 1930-s was not only in Ukraine; it was in other regions of the Soviet Union and in countries like Poland, Romania, UK, US, etc. Did Stalin impose it on all those countries also? Please, answer me.
2. No one was stopping any "food packages" to Ukraine, in fact, out of all USSR regions affected by famine Ukraine was getting most help from the central government.
3. How do you imagine imposing FAMINE as a punishment of UKRAINIAN people?! What about people of other ethnicities who lived in Ukraine? What about mixed families? Was Famine walking the streets knocking on doors and asking: "Are you Ukrainian?" and if "yes", it was killing them, if "no", it was apologising and moving on?
Do you even know that Ukraine was put together from RUSSIAN regions Malorussia, Novorussia, Territory of Army of Don, Severshina, etc? And who told you that the resistance to collectivisation in Ukraine was higher then in Moscow region?
STOP LEARNING HISTORY BY WATCHING YOUR PROPAGANDA!
Well, I don't think the Vikings were invited, I think the Chronicle was written that way to put a positive "spin" on what must have been an invasion. But now that you mention it, I have heard that theory, that there was an older blood connection. Nicholas Roerich, the painter, was of Swedish descent. In fact, it's said he could trace his line back to the original Rurik. I think his ancestry goes back to Latvia or Lithuania, and that area had Swedish settlers going far back in time. 800 AD and earlier, I think.
Again "Vikings"!
Not "Vikings", but VARANGIANS!!!!!!!!!!!
Rurik was a GRANDSON of the Grand Duke of NOVGOROD -- Gostomusl! He was invited to SHARE in power with another grandson of Gostomusl -- Vadim; he was invited because he was a distinguished military leader, while Vadim wasn't.
So eastern Ukrainian is considered to be a dialect of Russian, similar to the difference between High German and Low German? There can be a fine line between Low German (dialect) and Dutch (a separate language). I can see how this could really lend itself to dispute.
Now that I think about it, erasure may be right, that Ukrainian preserves some aspects of Old Slavic. Ukrainian uses the vocative case, which Russian no longer does.
There's some very old vocabulary in Ukrainian, that's absent in Russian, too. It's been a very long time since I studied a little Ukrainian.
Wasn't Ukraine originally part of Poland, before the end of WWII? Poland was shifted to the West as part of the war settlement, and so Ukraine was peeled off from Poland and was made into a country that was attached to Russia.
Was Belarus originally part of Poland as well? I suspect it was.
I don't know German, and I don't know anything about High German and Low German. Malorussian dialectS are just dialects of Russian language.
Who told you Russian language no longer uses vocative case? "Len", "Ol'", "Tan'", etc. in names is the use of vocative case!
Ukrainian language is an ARTIFICIAL language. It was created at the start of the 20-s century.
The word "ukraina/ukrain/okraina/oukraina" is common to all Slavic languages and means "land on a border", "frontier". When Polish-Lithuanian Empire invaded and occupied Russian territories, these territories made Polish FRONTIER, that's why Poles were calling them UKRAINA.
At the time Poles were occupying part of Russia, White Rus (Belarus) was known as BLACK Rus; while lands around Moscow were referred to as White Rus (Belarus)! And Galitchina under Polish occupation retained its name "Chervona Rus" until the 16-s century!
she was speaking specifically about Lvov. She said the city felt more like Poland than Ukraine.
That's because until 1939 Ukrainians were not allowed to live in cities except for those who worked as housemades to Poles and Jews, or who worked in Polish and Jewish businesses.
Not "originally" - originally it was land of Kievan Rus; that's where Russia started.
"Kievan Rus" is not a name of a state. It's a HISTORIC TERM! State was called Rus. A word "Russia" is just a Greek version of "Rus".
And Rus started in Novgorod. From there Slavic tribes led by RUS (the name of the tribe) went on Kiev and united other Slavic tribes into one state which became known as Rus.
Just so you understand what Ukraine is, how it came about and what is going on there now -- a brief breakdown:
since the death of Yaroslav the Wise -- Grand Duke of Kiev -- Russia was divided between his numerous sons marking the beginning of the demise of Kiev as the political centre of Russia. Lots of squabbles followed which over a period of time resulted in Russia losing Tmutaracan (part of modern day Crimea) and becoming an easy target for Mongols.
While Mongols regularly devastated largely open lands of Southern Rus, it’s forested regions managed to escape the same fate and eventually unite first around Vladimir and then around a new political centre – Moscow. But because Kiev was still a RELIGIOUSE centre of Russia, the lands around it were called Great Russia, while Vladimir and Moscow – Little Russia (Malorussia). And only since 1299 (when Metropolit Maxim moved religious centre from Kiev to a safer residence first in Vladimir, then in Moscow) the titles Great Russia and Little Russia were swapped. It is interesting to note that the first mention of Little Russia (Malorussia) in foreign documents was made in the 14-th century Byzantium with reference to Galitsko-Volyn (modern day West-Ukraine).
In 1349 Polish King Kasimir 3 invaded and captured Galitsky Rus. It became part of Rzeczpospolita (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) but kept its name “Galitska Rus” or "Chervona Rus" until the 16-th century.
And so, Galitcia (Galitchina), Volyn and Bukovina were removed from under the influence of their mother-culture and over a period of few hundred years were under a heavy influence of Polish, Germanic, Romanian, Hungarian cultures and religion. Poles always referred to their Russian colonies as “ukraina” – periphery.
But Poland itself became divided between Austro-Hungarian Empire and Russian Empire.
19-th century saw a rise in ethnic nationalism throughout Europe.
The first “ukrainians” were highly educated (intellectual elite) Poles, Russians and Ruthenians that were appalled by the treatment of local peasantry by their masters. In protest they associated themselves with the “underdog” by promoting peasant dialects and wearing peasant clothes… They began to call themselves “ukrainophiles” and were trying to better the lives of poor by educating them, which required they systematise local dialects… The idea of helping the oppressed classes was very popular among the intelligentsia. Some of them came to believe that South-Western Russians would have better chance developing themselves if they will be recognised as a separate cultural entity.
After the defeat of the Polish uprising of 1863 a large number of Polish and Ruthenian intellectuals from the south-western provinces of Russia ran to Austrian Galitchina. Another defeat caused such hatred for everything Russian, that small group of marginal literary-political separatists “ukrainophiles” denounced their Ruthenian ethnicity and started calling themselves “ukrainians” taking course on ethnic separatism.
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