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The French fought valiantly in both world wars. In plain English the French and British were outfought by superior troops. German combat arms at that time was without doubt the best the world had seen. To answer your question regards the so called French cowardice. The French fought the rear guard that allowed the British to run. Therein lays the kernel for slander that the The bulk of the British B.E.F was evacuated from Dunkirk. The Germans kicked their Brit butts into the English Channel, yet the Brit spin has it celebrated as some sort of victory. The British left their weapons and wounded on the beach. Make no mistake about it, the French can fight, despite British spin in their boot in the backside from the Germans. BTW the French Resistance made German lives a living hell during their occupation and assisting the allies during the fight to free France.
Incorrect. Pure Hollywood history. Allied incompetence at high level was the problem in France. The small British force did not run. They retreated when the French collapsed when faced with a massive German army coming their way. Masses of French troops also retreated over the water. The British did not brand the French as cowards that was more the Americans. The British insisted the French be on the winners table at the end of the war and one of the FOUR winning powers. NO wounded were left on the beaches. The RAF defeated the Germans over Dunkirk.
The French resistance was controlled by the British who supplied them with arms.
Your ignorance is total on this subject. The British stopped the Germans at Arras. Rommel thought he had been hit by a force three times the strength it was. The RAF defeated the Germans over Dunkirk, the first showing of the Spitfire. Few ships were sunk as the RAF kept the German planes away. The British and French had a counter-attack plan for Dunkirk but dropped it. Present day analysts say it would have worked as the Germans were at the end of their supply line - being supplied by horses. Only one third of the British army was in France.
Adam Tooze, Wages of Destruction.
Page 371.
"The German army that invaded France in May 1940 was far from being a carefully honed weapon of modern armoured warfare. Of Germany's 93 combat ready divisions on May 10 1940, only 9 were Panzer divisions, with a total of 2.438 tanks between them. These units faced a French army that was more
heavily motorised, with 3,254 tanks in total."
Tooze, page 371/372.
"Nor should one accept unquestioningly the popular idea that the concentration of the Germans tanks in specialised tank divisions gave them a decisive advantage. Many French tanks were scattered amongst the infantry units, but with their ample stock of vehicles the French could afford to do this. The bulk of France's best tanks were concentrated in armoured units, that, on paper at least, were every bit a match for the Panzer divisions."
Page 377
"The Germans not only committed "all" their tanks and planes. In strictest conformity with the Schwerpunkt principle, they committed them on an astonishingly narrow front" "the Luftwaffe sacrificed no less than 347 aircraft, including virtually all its transports used in the air landings in Holland and Belgium".
Page 378
"if Allied bombers had penetrated the German fighter screen over the Ardennes they could have wreaked havoc amongst the slow moving traffic" "highly inflammable fuel tankers were interspersed with the fighting vehicles at the very front with the armoured fighting vehicles" "The plan called for the German armoured columns to drive for three days and nights without interruption".
The German drivers were put on "speed" pills.
Page 379
"success would not have been possible had it not been for the particular nature of the battlefield. The Channel coastline provided the German army a natural obstacle to pin their enemies, an obstacle which could be reached within few hundred kilometres of the German border." "the Germans benefited from the well made sense network of roads" "In Poland in 1939 the Wehrmacht had struggled to maintain the momentum of its motorized troops when faced with far more difficult conditions."
"a close analysis of the mechanics of the Blitzkrieg reveals the astonishing degree of concentration achieved, but an enormous gamble that Hitler and the Wehrmacht were taking on May 10."
Page 380
"because it involved such a concentrated use of force, Manstein's plan was a "one-shot affair". If the initial assault had failed, and it could have failed in many ways, the Wehrmacht as an offensive force would have been spent. The gamble paid off. But contrary to appearances, the Germans had not discovered a patent recipe for military miracles. The overwhelming success of May 1940, resulting in the defeat of a major European military power in a matter of weeks, was not a repeatable outcome"
Tooze, page 373:
"In retrospect, it suited neither the Allies nor the Germans to expose the amazingly haphazard course through which the Wehrmacht had arrived at its most brilliant military success. The myth of the Blitzkrieg suited the British and French because it provided an explanation other than military incompetence for their pitiful defeat. But whereas it suited the Allies to stress the alleged superiority of German equipment, Germany's own propaganda viewed the Blitzkrieg in less materialistic terms."
False, once again.
Personnel transported to Libya left/arrived
Italian Army and Civilians 1940: 24.669/24.619 1941: 78.683/72.503 1942-1.1943: 14.697/12.597 TOT: 118.049/109.719
Italian Navy: 1940: 2.523/2.523 1941: 5.710/5.532 1942-1.1943: 971/946 TOT: 9.204/9.001
Italian Air Force: 1940: 2.107/2.107 1941: 7.183/5.459 1942-1.1943: 202/200 TOT:9.492/7.766
German Units: 1940: 0 1941: 65.645/59.559 1942-1.1943: 4.012/3.117 TOT: 69.657/62.676
Grand Total per year:
1940: 29.299/29.249 (99,9%) 1941: 157.221/143.053 (91%) 1942-1.1943:19.882/16.960
Sum: 206.402/189.162 (91.6%)
Supplies brought to Libya (in tons)
Fuel 1940: 47.520/47.520 1941: 234.426/181.015 1942-1942: 317.391/248.168 TOT: 599.337/476.703 (80%)
Vehicles and parts: 1940: 30.131/30.126 1941: 144.478/128.731 1942/3 : 100.701/84.776 TOT:275.310/243.633 (88%)
Weapons and ammo 1940: 21.948/21.938 1941: 61.054/53.281 1942/3: 87.058/74.243 TOT: 170.060/149.462 (88%)
Other supplies: 1940 204.868/197.891 1941: 576.483/490.166 1942/3: 419.322/372.100 TOT: 1.200.673/1.060.157 (86%)
Grand total per year of all kind of supplies:
1940: 304.467/297.475 1941: 1.016.441/853.193 1942/3: 924.472/779.287 Final sum: 2.245.380/1.929.955 (85.9%)
In Tunisia personnel transported successfully was 93% whereas supplies was 71%, so in the end the Royal Navy lost the battle of convoys against Regia Marina.
Xander you know John's reputation here for picking for own profit but ignoring that which does not, leading to well, an impasse. I do not respond anymore because I do not like to engage in a discussion with people who are intellectually dishonest. This process should be informative and it usually it but some folks are impossible to deal with.
False, once again.
Personnel transported to Libya left/arrived
Italian Army and Civilians 1940:...
If you factor in what the Italians wanted to take but could not because of the RN lurking and the dire shortage of fuel preventing convoys from sailing and then the actual sinkings, you will find the Italians fell well, well, short.
Once France fell oil products came from Romania and synthetic oil made in Germany, and so little it made little difference to the dire situation. The oil output was not enough for the needs of the German forces alone and to keep the Italian navy operational, which threatened to suspend all operations in February 1941 unless Germany provided 250,000 tons of fuel due to the dire shortage. They did but it was of such low grade they could not use it.
If you factor in what the Italians wanted to take but could not because of the RN lurking and the dire shortage of fuel preventing convoys from sailing and then the actual sinkings, you will find the Italians fell well, well, short.
Once France fell oil products came from Romania and synthetic oil made in Germany, and so little it made little difference to the dire situation. The oil output was not enough for the needs of the German forces alone and to keep the Italian navy operational, which threatened to suspend all operations in February 1941 unless Germany provided 250,000 tons of fuel due to the dire shortage. They did but it was of such low grade they could not use it.
None of which is attributable to the Royal Navy though.
The Regia Marina simply managed to get whatever they wanted to North Africa in spite of the RAF, of the Royal Navy and later of the US aeroplanes and ships, never ever the Britons managed to cut the supply lines to North Africa.
None of which is attributable to the Royal Navy though.
The RN prevented Italy and Germany trading with the rest of the world. The British held the Middle East oil fields.
Quote:
The Regia Marina simply managed to get whatever they wanted to North Africa in spite of the RAF, of the Royal Navy and later of the US aeroplanes and ships, never ever the Britons managed to cut the supply lines to North Africa.
No they never. Combined with British forces starving Germany and Italy of oil and the British forces in the Med, the Italians did not deliver anywhere near what they wanted to North Africa. Convoys never sailed because the Italian navy never had enough oil. Many of the merchant ships may have used coal but the escorts used oil.
The RN prevented Italy and Germany trading with the rest of the world. The British held the Middle East oil fields.
No they never. Combined with British forces starving Germany and Italy of oil and the British forces in the Med, the Italians did not deliver anywhere near what they wanted to North Africa. Convoys never sailed because the Italian navy never had enough oil. Many of the merchant ships may have used coal but the escorts used oil.
It's a nice way to twist the point: you said that the British forces actively prevented Italians from delivering supplies, that's false.
Despite the Royal Navy and the RAF, despite Malta, the Regia Marina did make the convoys pass.
In the end, more than 80 % of what sailed reached North Africa, it'd be nice to know the relative percentages about the Atlantic battle.
It's a nice way to twist the point: you said that the British forces actively prevented Italians from delivering supplies, that's false.
It is very clear and obvious what I wrote.
Quote:
Despite the Royal Navy and the RAF, despite Malta, the Regia Marina did make the convoys pass.
In the end, more than 80 % of what sailed reached North Africa, it'd be nice to know the relative percentages about the Atlantic battle.
Most of what sailed and got though was in the early part until the British got the smaller U class subs and the RAF with the anti-shipping Swordfish came about.
You have selective amnesia regarding the convoys that never sailed because of no, or little, fuel, which because of the British ensuring the Axis had little of it. What the Italians wanted to send and what reached Africa fell far, far short. A convoy that never sailed is akin to the cargo being lost at sea.
It is very clear and obvious what I wrote.
Most of what sailed and got though was in the early part until the British got the smaller U class subs and the RAF with the anti-shipping Swordfish came about.
Nope and no again.
It's just a myth of the British propaganda, like the Cowardice of Italians.
NEVER the Britons managed to cut off the supply lines since everything passed.
You can twist, but data are clear: Italy won the battle of convoys.
Quote:
You have selective amnesia regarding the convoys that never sailed because of no, or little, fuel, which because of the British ensuring the Axis had little of it. What the Italians wanted to send and what reached Africa fell far, far short. A convoy that never sailed is akin to the cargo being lost at sea.
So, in other word, North Africa is a clear Axis victory since it kept Allies busy far from Europe while Germany was trying to knock Russia out of the war.
Once Germans got defeated on the Eastern front (be it in front of Moscow in December 1941 or at Stalingrad in 1942, your choice), nothing else mattered since the war was inevitably and absolutely lost no matter what Germans tried.
Had Germans defeated the Soviets (how is irrelevant), nothing would have prevented the Germans from stalemating the war since the Allies would have never been able to land in Europe against a fully prepared Wehrmacht (unless you propose the use of nukes but I find it rather unlikely) and in the same way Germans couldn't defeat the Allies (perhaps if they managed to mass-produce within the first half of 1943 the Type XXI but it's waaaaaaay a what-if).
Isn't this a rather over-stretched reasoning?
You said, quoting you:
Quote:
Towards the end only 25% was getting through of Italian convoys.
This is plainly false.
Saying that that sentence is true because Britain could cut off the trade lines to Axis of oil is non-sense: it's obvious that, likewise the entrance into the war of Italy forced the Allies to send convoys for North Africa bypassing South Africa (aside from a few convoys for Malta), woah, what a victory for Italy.
It's even more false when you say:
Quote:
Most of what sailed and got though was in the early part
Because even in Tunisia when the Allies enjoyed overwhelming superiority in everything, even in those conditions, the Italians made more than 70% of stuff (up to 90% considering only personnel) pass.
I thought the Germans surprised them. France and England were them to attack through the low countries but they attacked through the Ardennes. Once they crossed the Meuse, the last defended natural barrier, there was nothing to oppose them and they split the Allied forces. Under the circumstances, how could defeat not have been quick?
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