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I think that is how it will have to be. I have sources and numbers that contradict what you posted. For instance, your own link on the Red Cross, says they were building sanitation facilities for industrial workers in the 1930's, doesn't even mention anything about famine. The Soviet Red Cross is also very different from the International Red Cross, the Soviet government barred any international relief or food shipments, which is very different from how Lenin handled the situation in the 1920's. The export and import numbers I have seen also differ widely. Michael Ellman (professor emeritus of Soviet studies and economics) published the following imports and exports from Ukrainian ports:
The total exports of nearly 1.8 million tons over that period could have fed 5 million people for 1 year.
Again, though, we will have to agree to disagree. You won't trust my sources because you think they are biased and I won't trust yours because I think they are biased.
You didn't know? Ukrainians are Russians now that Russians have decided that they would really like the Ukraine back.
Ultimately this is like an Irishman telling a Scot he's really Irish because afterall, we're all Celtic...right?
This is a prime Example of Russian imperialism. It's beyond territorial expansion, its about denying entire nations their right to existance and sovereignity. Its amazing to see that Russian imperialism survived the fall of Russian Empire in 1918 as Soviet Union had the same imperial prerogatives and spend decades trying to recapture nations which escaped Russian rule in the chaos that ensued after Bolshevik revolution. Nations as diverse as Finland, Lithuania and Poland.
After even more nations became independent during Perestroika, Russians are already working on bringing them back in places as diverse as Ukraine and Georgia.
This antiukrainian rhethoric we saw here is simply meant to lay ground for annexation of Ukraine.
Nothing ever changes in Russia.
Fly to the other part of the planet to risk being thrown in prison for 3+ years, for asking people, who identify themselves as Ukrainians, if they are Russians?
I better take an easier approach - some poll from Kiev:
Numbers in bold are percent of Ukrainian language use.
More broad poll:
That's despite massive attempts in the past two decades to eliminate Russian language.
Language alone is not a criteria of national identity. Irish are not English just because most of them speak English in every day lives. You Russians have to lose this Bysantine absolutist mindset and learn to let people and entire nations decide by themselves.
You didn't know? Ukrainians are Russians now that Russians have decided that they would really like the Ukraine back.
Why would we want Ukraine back - to share our oil with tens of millions poor people?
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For instance, your own link on the Red Cross, says they were building sanitation facilities for industrial workers in the 1930's, doesn't even mention anything about famine.
It sure does - just doesn't provide any details:
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"From fighting the epidemic - to a healthier working and living" - the motto of the Red Cross in the early 1930s.
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The Soviet Red Cross is also very different from the International Red Cross, the Soviet government barred any international relief or food shipments, which is very different from how Lenin handled the situation in the 1920's.
1. The government suggested/ordered the Red Cross to raise as much foreign aid as they could.
2. They distributed Nestle baby food - that's not a Soviet brand.
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Michael Ellman (professor emeritus of Soviet studies and economics) published the following imports and exports from Ukrainian ports
He didn't specify which sources contain that info, and there is no way I'll go check all the references.
But... lots of references are to the anti-Stalinist "encyclopedia", funded by Eltsin's Fund (this guarantees that it contained lots of fakes). This 100-volume (just 100 individual books under a common theme) "encyclopedia" had a print run of, depending on the book, from a few hundred to 2000 copies - that's absolutely nothing for high reading 300 million ex-USSR. Legitimate books (and there are a lot of them) about those times print tens of thousands copies, plus reprints.
Something that may provide you a hint: millions of animals (for food), plus meat, were imported - but he didn't mention it. Also no mention that lots of exported grains was then returned.
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Again, though, we will have to agree to disagree. You won't trust my sources because you think they are biased and I won't trust yours because I think they are biased.
Yes, lets stop arguing about facts, because you read biased texts, that quote fake sources. It's not your fault - I myself can't name any legitimate English reading on the subject.
This is a prime Example of Russian imperialism. It's beyond territorial expansion, its about denying entire nations their right to existance and sovereignity.
Language alone is not a criteria of national identity.
You Russians have to lose this Bysantine absolutist mindset and learn to let people and entire nations decide by themselves.
A lot of colonists of my home province Primorye came from Ukraine (the part of Earth that is now called Ukraine ). My ancestors came from Odessa...
Should I continue or are you puzzled enough already? Better watch your tounge, yankee, if you don't want to look stupid.
Why would we want Ukraine back - to share our oil with tens of millions poor people?
They are not that much poorer than Russians and of course you like Ukranian coal and agriculture.
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Originally Posted by russiaonline
1. The government suggested/ordered the Red Cross to raise as much foreign aid as they could.
2. They distributed Nestle baby food - that's not a Soviet brand.
Something that may provide you a hint: millions of animals (for food), plus meat, were imported - but he didn't mention it. Also no mention that lots of exported grains was then returned.
Yes, lets stop arguing about facts, because you read biased texts, that quote fake sources. It's not your fault - I myself can't name any legitimate English reading on the subject.
And yet to come here to this American forum to voice your absurd and revisionist opinions...
Lay it off, Ivan. There are hundreds of first hand accounts of hunger in Ukraine and the Soviet sanitary cordon that was put in place to starve off the Ukraine. I read accounts of cannibalism. That;s how bad it was there.
And all of it because of Petlura and Ukrainian will to have an independent country? Ukrianians are not Russians and not Poles. They are Ukrainians.
They hate Russians so much that after German invasion many went to fight against Soviet Union. Enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Ukrainians have a right to a sovereign country. Leave them alone, Ivan.
Then Mexicans are not that much poorer than Americans
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and of course you like Ukranian coal and agriculture.
Are you healthy?
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and revisionist opinions...
Anti-revisionist.
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Lay it off, Ivan. There are hundreds of first hand accounts of hunger in Ukraine and the Soviet sanitary cordon that was put in place to starve off the Ukraine.
Then it won't be a problem for you to provide them here
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And all of it because of Petlura and Ukrainian will to have an independent country?
Stop demonstrating your "wisdom" after reading some Wikipedia tidbids - you look ridiculous.
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They hate Russians so much that after German invasion many went to fight against Soviet Union.
Who did? Hordes of people, massacred by Axis and ultra-nationalist Ukrainians?
Don't expect to grant an understanding of something very grand by scanning through a few Wiki articles.
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Ukrainians have a right to a sovereign country. Leave them alone, Ivan.
Then Mexicans are not that much poorer than Americans
Income per capita in Ukraine is $7,000, in Russia $15,000 and in the us $48,000
There is much more difference between the per capita income in the US and Russia than between Russia and Ukraine.
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Originally Posted by russiaonline
Then it won't be a problem for you to provide them here
Stop demonstrating your "wisdom" after reading some Wikipedia tidbids - you look ridiculous.
Who did? Hordes of people, massacred by Axis and ultra-nationalist Ukrainians?
Don't expect to grant an understanding of something very grand by scanning through a few Wiki articles.
Stop your racism, yankee.
I wasn't aware Russians are a race. Lol
Stop using internet, Ivan. Its not healthy for a Russian mind. You may actually learn something beyond old Soviet propaganda.
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