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Old 08-27-2012, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Elsewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggieZ View Post
maybe Jesus was a common name for a guru back then ...maybe his real name was lost so they made one up.. or they added this guy who wandered around to make the bible interesting and more attractive to people...
Jesus (Joshua/Yeshua in Hebrew, whichever version you prefer) was a common name for a Jewish kid back then. This was Judea. They didn't have gurus. Gurus are Hindu.
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
There were a lot of Herods. If I recall correctly, Herod the Great named all of his sons Herod. Sort of like George Foreman.

Not sure which one was supposed to have been the one on the throne at the time of the nativity, though. Doesn't matter anyway, since no one can pinpoint the exact year Jesus was born.
Then you've answered the "question" that callmemaybe was supposedly asking - even though it wasn't a question as much as a statement.
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Old 08-27-2012, 11:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Big George View Post
Then you've answered the "question" that callmemaybe was supposedly asking - even though it wasn't a question as much as a statement.
Not really. While there were several Herod's, there was only one "Herod the Great". He had two children, Herod Archelaus and Herod Antipas. Herod the Great ruled Judea until 4BCE. Upon his death his son Herod Archelaus was given control of Judea, Samaria and Edom until 6CE at which time the Romans disposed of him and fractured the territory. Judea and Samaria were combined into the Province of Judea and a Roman prefect was appointed to rule this territory. Herod Antipas was then given rule over Galilee until 39CE.

The Roman prefect became Pontius Pilate at some point and Herod Antipas was the man Jesus was sent to see by Pilate. That all seems to work out.

What is is debatable is the fact the Bible points to Quirinius' census. Qurinius was the Legate of Syria and was appointed in 6CE. His first task was to assess the provinces that were newly formed after Herod Archelaus was disposed of. The first task of which was completing a census.

The Gospel of Luke links the birth of Jesus to the census carried out by Quirinius in 6CE. At the same time Luke and Mathew both state that the birth occurred during the reign of Herod the Great. We know the census was in 6CE and we know that Herod the Great died in 4BCE, so there is a ten year gap. A lot of people explain this contradiction that Luke was simply mistaken and that he was not referring to "the census" but another registration that took place under Herod the Great, though no information about such a census exists and is unlikely to have happened since census' were banned by Jewish law. The Gospel accounts are also very clear on the Herod's. The birth was claimed to have occurred during the reign of Herod the Great who then initiated the "Massacre of the Innocents" which caused Joseph and his family to flee to Egpyt, where they remained until Herod the Great's son Herod Archelaus was removed from power.

To reiterate, no one writing at the time would have confused Herod the Great with any of his children and the Bible clearly names all of them specifically. Herod the Great was a larger then life figure in Judea at the time. Also, the great census conducted by Quirinius was a major event precisely because census' were forbidden by Jewish religious law and they hated submitting to one and the census that was conducted spawned the revolt of Judas of Galilee.

So, we have two major markers. No Jew would have forgotten that census and no one would have forgotten the reign of Herod the Great. The Bible conflicts itself on these points and it cannot be reconciled unless you dismiss one of the accounts. Either way, Mary and Joseph didn't go to Bethlehem during the "great census" and then have to flee the soldiers of Herod the Great and hide in Egypt, it is simply not possible. Since Luke is the only source for the "census story" his is the one most easily dismissed.

The census story may also be part of the "Messiah making" that went on. It provided a reason why a Galilean would go to Bethlehem (though there is no evidence in the countless Roman census' that going to your "home" village had to be done). Since Bethlehem is the "City of David" and the purported location of David's birth and anointment as King, it was symoblically important to place Jesus' birth there. Also, the "Massacre of the Innocents" has no account other then in the Bible. However, that event makes for a good reason why Jesus would have "gone into exile" in Egypt before returning to the "Promised Land". Yet again, we have ample evidence that the Gospels were heavily edited or written in such a way to create the Messiah-cred of Jesus for his Jewish audience.
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Old 08-27-2012, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Texas
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I'm sure this has been mentioned but, it would be amazing to learn that Jesus was just an idea or a physical representation of all the good qualities of man and how we are supposed to behave rather than an actual human being that walked the Earth.
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Old 08-27-2012, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Atlanta & NYC
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Let me ask Siri...
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Old 08-29-2012, 04:07 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRage View Post
Besides what's written in the Holy Bible and the Holy Qu'ran, I'm not sure of any other historical texts that mention Jesus. However, it's an interesting theory that Jesus could have actually been a collection of people or an ideal person who religious people can look up to as a role model for how they should live their lives.
There is so much about him that is pulled together from other religions, even holidays. The Catholic church that compiled the books of the bible wanted to win converts from other faiths to gain power, and so incorporated elements of those faiths in order to make conversion easier.

If you look at the teachings from a political point of view, it makes for a nice, docile, population, telling adherents to pay their taxes, turn the other cheek if someone attacks you, slaves should serve their master well, etc.
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Old 08-29-2012, 04:16 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callmemaybe View Post
What I find interesting is how Jesus was supposed born during Herod yet also during Quirinius, when Herod died 10 yrs before Quirinius took post.
A good theological seminary teaches those who wish to become pastors and priests about the bible in the context of history and biblical contradictions, but after these people graduate and get a 'flock' they do not forward these teachings on to the public.

That is probably because they are charged with increasing the fold (and income). Telling the truth would be a risk. The exceptions are those clergy who were never told the entire truth during their studies, never forced/encouraged into making inquiries with an open analyticity mind. They tend to be fundamentalists.
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Old 08-29-2012, 04:18 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,406 posts, read 18,937,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Jesus (Joshua/Yeshua in Hebrew, whichever version you prefer) was a common name for a Jewish kid back then. This was Judea. They didn't have gurus. Gurus are Hindu.
I believe 'guru' is the word for 'teacher' and many use it in the context of the English language.
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Old 08-29-2012, 04:26 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRage View Post
I'm sure this has been mentioned but, it would be amazing to learn that Jesus was just an idea or a physical representation of all the good qualities of man and how we are supposed to behave rather than an actual human being that walked the Earth.
Yes, and if churches would but admit that, perhaps they would have more attendees.

I don't go to church because I would be a hypocrite to say that I believe in the divinity of Jesus any more than I believe in the divinity of my own deceased parents. Others attend church and can live with the inconsistencies. I don't know how they can do that with a clear conscience.
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Old 08-29-2012, 05:15 AM
 
Location: Ostend,Belgium....
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that's what I'm saying "guru" as in someone who goes around talking to the masses, someone with charisma......
I agree with you, goldengrain,
and what if he was an idea, not a person and yeah, the inconsistencies need to go! How do people explain that they believe things that don't make sense?
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