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Old 08-15-2012, 07:27 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
88,218 posts, read 82,238,108 times
Reputation: 92544

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
Really? You think cars in France or Italy or Germany are considered luxuries?
Have you ever been to Western Europe or are they still denying your visa applications?
Been to Germany & around Europe many times. (Erasure and I live in the US, btw.) Germans and Dutch have told me, "In Europe, cars, washing machines, these are luxuries, but in America, they're considered basic necessities."
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Old 08-15-2012, 07:30 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
88,218 posts, read 82,238,108 times
Reputation: 92544
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
It has a lot do with objective reality of XXI century Russia. That's all.
But your point was about independent thinking. If you'd looked at the other threads where we've been discussing, you'd see we (well, some of us) acknowledge the problems you mentioned, and discuss them. If you believe Russians think in lockstep, that would be evidence of you not thinking independently . Even in the Soviet period, Russians didn't all fall for the party line.

Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 08-15-2012 at 07:58 PM..
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Old 08-15-2012, 07:55 PM
 
48,508 posts, read 88,869,905 times
Reputation: 18195
I thinik its just the reson one sees the difference i Soyuth and north Korean economies.Ineffecdiency of the centralist sytems.Its reaslly hway even China has gone to a partial marketeconmy after years of bing like north korean with its starving people caused by ineffeciency of the system.
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Old 08-15-2012, 08:02 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
88,218 posts, read 82,238,108 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
I thinik its just the reson one sees the difference i Soyuth and north Korean economies.Ineffecdiency of the centralist sytems.Its reaslly hway even China has gone to a partial marketeconmy after years of bing like north korean with its starving people caused by ineffeciency of the system.
Inefficiency, definitely. Also, I think there were too many freebies. Ex-military of any kind got free plane tickets within the country on a limited basis, but still, for a compulsory military svce, that's a lot of free rides. There were hidden freebies, and highly subsidized goods and services. So prices were arbitrary. It was voodoo economics, held together with glue made from the sweat of the working people, including intellectuals, academics, scientists.

The ironic thing is that central planning has become the latest fad in US corporate life. Someone back at Whole Foods HQ, wherever it is, decides what clothing items and other non-food items should be sent seasonally to all the stores around the country, regardless of local climate and demand. It doesn't work.
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:11 AM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,510,244 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Been to Germany & around Europe many times. (Erasure and I live in the US, btw.) Germans and Dutch have told me, "In Europe, cars, washing machines, these are luxuries, but in America, they're considered basic necessities."
Cars and washing mashines luxuries in Europe?
Wow. I hope some Europeans read it and have a chuckle. Lol
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:28 AM
 
19,480 posts, read 16,117,741 times
Reputation: 8396
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
Oh. There was no prostitution in Soviet days?
You mean as far as foreigners were concerned?
Yes, there was prostitution, run by the KGB, with limited choice of women and rates comparative to the Western ( after all don't forget that 1 ruble in those days = 1 dollar according to official rate exchange.)
So I can't see how this could be a particular attraction.


Quote:
Thinking independently: Russia is still a country with a lot of catching up to do...
Country with no democratic traditions, where human rights are violated daily, dictatorship with obsolete, outdated industry, terrible roads and a lots of poverty, especially in the country...
I suspect that today's Russian establishment is not going to play a game of "catching up" - they will rather explore all the weaknesses of the West; economic dependence of the US on China, disagreements between the US and the EU and few other things that they will find very convenient looking ahead. They will make their alliances according to their interests, and "independent thinking" - the kind you are talking about will be very irrelevant in the unfolding situation when it comes to current Russian government.

Last edited by erasure; 08-16-2012 at 12:47 AM..
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:32 AM
 
19,480 posts, read 16,117,741 times
Reputation: 8396
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
Really? You think cars in France or Italy or Germany are considered luxuries?
Speaking from the practical point of view ( not price wise) - yes, they are luxuries, since one can easily get by without owning them in Europe. In the US as I've already said cars are a necessity, not luxury.

Last edited by erasure; 08-16-2012 at 12:47 AM..
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:38 AM
 
19,480 posts, read 16,117,741 times
Reputation: 8396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Inefficiency, definitely. Also, I think there were too many freebies. Ex-military of any kind got free plane tickets within the country on a limited basis, but still, for a compulsory military svce, that's a lot of free rides. There were hidden freebies, and highly subsidized goods and services.
Not to mention that food was dirt cheap, plus all the free daycares, summer camps for children, where children were shipped out of town for the whole summer giving parents a break, tonnes of extra-curricular activities for school-age children, plus generous maternal leaves up to two years ( I was shocked when I saw women in the US working during the 8th month of pregnancy,) - things like that.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:44 AM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,510,244 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
You mean as far as foreigners were concerned?
Yes, there was prostitution, run by the KGB, with limited choice of women and rates comparative to the Western ( after all don't forget that 1 ruble in those days = 1 dollar according to official rate exchange.)
So I can't see how this could be a particular attraction.
Yes and the official exchange rates were binding. Lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post

I suspect that today's Russian establishment is not going to play a game of "catching up" - they will rather explore all the weaknesses of the West; economic dependence of the US on China, disagreements between the US and the EU and few other things that they will find very convenient looking ahead. They will make their alliances according to their interests, and "independent thinking" - the kind you are talking about will be very irrelevant in the unfolding situation when it comes to current Russian government.

Good luck. It would take Russia decades to catcth up technologically if of course Russia wasn't plundered by ex-KGB officers turned busiinesmen.
If you are such a fan of Russia and Russian values why do you live in America?
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Old 08-16-2012, 05:35 AM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,510,244 times
Reputation: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Not to mention that food was dirt cheap, plus all the free daycares, summer camps for children, where children were shipped out of town for the whole summer giving parents a break, tonnes of extra-curricular activities for school-age children, plus generous maternal leaves up to two years ( I was shocked when I saw women in the US working during the 8th month of pregnancy,) - things like that.
Ha ha ha. Sure Soviet Union was such a miracle down to cheap food sold and processed in unsanitary conditions and free healthcare where single use needles were considered a luxury. Such a heaven yet milllions were plotting how to get away and thousands did. Just like you both

Last edited by rebel12; 08-16-2012 at 07:05 AM..
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