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Old 08-31-2012, 04:51 PM
 
1,730 posts, read 1,828,286 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Thank you it actually got much better after I saw your lovely dialog with Rebel12..
I'm glad I've raised your mood
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:48 PM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,506,103 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
You don't know a thing... Shortly after the Perestroyka, the "capitalist West is rotting" propaganda was replaced with "we will all live as the Western upper-middle class" propaganda that led to the destruction of the Union.
Sure, it was the propaganda that destroyed Russia and not years of communist economical system...
ROTFL. Good one, Russia, Have more?
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Old 08-31-2012, 06:30 PM
 
1,730 posts, read 1,828,286 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
Sure, it was the propaganda that destroyed Russia and not years of communist economical system...
ROTFL. Good one, Russia, Have more?
Look at USSR in 1945, and USSR in 1980. If you don't see tremendous progress, despite the need to meet the military strength of all developed countries - then you are simply an idiot. Really.
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
Look at USSR in 1945, and USSR in 1980. If you don't see tremendous progress, despite the need to meet the military strength of all developed countries - then you are simply an idiot. Really.
Ha ha ha. There was a progess in Russia between 1945 and 1980 but nowhere near the progress experienced by Germany, France or Japan during the same time. Soviet economy, like any other economy not based on free market was wasteful and inefficient. Even today Italy has higher GDP than Russia
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:54 PM
 
19,341 posts, read 16,040,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
Ha ha ha. There was a progess in Russia between 1945 and 1980 but nowhere near the progress experienced by Germany, France or Japan during the same time. Soviet economy, like any other economy not based on free market was wasteful and inefficient.
But Germany and France were ahead of Russia already BEFORE Russia turned Communist.
( However I still didn't comment on your other post I was planning to.)
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Old 08-31-2012, 08:15 PM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,506,103 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
But Germany and France were ahead of Russia already BEFORE Russia turned Communist.
( However I still didn't comment on your other post I was planning to.)

First of all he specificaly asked about the period between 1945 and1980.
Second... Was Korea and China ahead of Russia in 1918? Was Spain or Portugal ahead of Russia in 1918?

Loik at the stats. Today South Korea's GDP is more than half of Russian GDP while Korea has 1/3 of Russia's population and not even that share of natural resources. How is that possible?

PS I never really expected you to respond to my post. You and I both know you can't deny my points and still pretend to be objective.

Last edited by rebel12; 08-31-2012 at 09:06 PM..
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:46 PM
 
19,341 posts, read 16,040,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
First of all he specificaly asked about the period between 1945 and1980.
Second... Was Korea and China ahead of Russia in 1918? Was Spain or Portugal ahead of Russia in 1918?

Loik at the stats. Today South Korea's GDP is more than half of Russian GDP while Korea has 1/3 of Russia's population and not even that share of natural resources. How is that possible?

PS I never really expected you to respond to my post. You and I both know you can't deny my points and still pretend to be objective.
Sure, sure Rebel - so here it goes...
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Old 09-01-2012, 12:12 AM
 
19,341 posts, read 16,040,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post

But of course. But you don't hear French or Germans complain, do you? LoL
Not sure about that one; I've noticed that Churchill for example was not all that cheerful on this matter on his memoirs, and American loans to German military machine is not widely discussed as you can understand, since it doesn't look too good. On top of that, anti-American sentiment is sure growing in Europe - it's noticeable even in international sections on this forum. Why is that, I wonder?


Quote:
Erasure, Soviet Union after the war falsfified elections and established puppet governments across the so called Eastern Europe. That was effectively an act of aggression towards the West.
And the allies were considering the possibility of attacking Russia BEFORE any act of aggression towards the West. So what does it tell you about the state of affairs between Russia and the West back in those times?

Operation Unthinkable - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
What thought? I am not aware of any significant left train thought in Russia prior to revolution. US was alteady a democracy when Russia was still an authoritharian monarchy... what are you talking about????
I am talking about the ideas behind the social structure of Russian "mir", the way they lived for centuries. Collecting and redistributing the goods among the villagers, Russians were originally communists in their nature, long before Marx told them anything. It's in their blood and veins.

Obshchina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's why Russia is the European country with original left train of thought, unlike the most of Europe.


Quote:
Youv till think in cold war terms: nobody cares about Russia: China is a much stronger competitor in XXI century than Russia.
As I've already said earlier, it's not a "competitor" in a true sense of the word; since this "competitor" is nothing else but Frankenstein creation of American corporations.

Quote:
You did the same to Finns, Georgians, Poles, Ukrainians and hundreads of other nations that were part of Russian Empire and later Soviet Union. Conquest is simply the history of mankind.
What "the same"? If you think that "hundreds of other nations" are doing much better with Russia being gone, go and visit Central Asia and see how they fair in their newly-found paradise.
Or check out what bloody mess became of Caucasus without their oppressive captors.
Georgia with their proud heritage suffocated by Russians? But without Russia their "proud heritage" would have been long gone, because as Christian nation they would have been raped by Ottomans and gulped up by Islam long time ago. Armenia barely survived this fate with Russia's help, and for Georgia there would have been no more claims for "European connection" through that Christian culture of theirs, if not for barbaric Russia. There is more to the story than meets the eye, particularly if to take in consideration that none of the "natives" were even placed in reservations as somewhere else, so don't paint everything with the same brush, as convenient as you find it.
That's number one, and number two - Finns, Georgians, Poles, Ukrainians - all of them survived and retained their ethnic identity under Russian domination, however Western drive "Nach Osten" starting with the Teutonic Order had one purpose in mind - the removal of that stubborn nation that was thorn in their sight, because being thorn in Western sight IS big part of Russian identity. As the saying goes "trust but verify," in the same manner Russia was meant to keep the West in check, as much as the West indeed was keeping Russia in check.

Quote:
And how did Soviet Russia, the biggest oppressor of the working class which in Soviet Union did not even havr a right to strike or independent unions, helped the lower class anywhere else????
Because while the scary boogie-man Soviet Union was out there, the upper class in the West was far more generous with its lower class; welfare check? not a problem, SSI? - by all means, and sure enough green light to Unions and their activities. It's better to negotiate and cave in, showing the "better, gentler side of capitalism," than to end up losing everything.
But lo and behold, after the fall of the Soviet Union the welfare reforms, the "tightening of the belt" came in; and after that - "austerity," the fast disintegration of middle class and chocking power of corporations everywhere. You think coincidence? Think twice.


Quote:
Wow wow wow. First of all Russia was never considered truly European by the Europeans. It was always foreign. Always outside of European mainstream. Nobody thought of Soviet Union as an European country as it was based on the same Byzantine absolutist concepts as Tsarist Empire before. Europe has strong democratic traditions, Russia has none.
Again you are lumping everything together and your slanted way of thinking makes you to arrive to wrong conclusions as usual.
Russia was never supposed to be "European mainstream," because it was the offshoot of European thought extended to a relatively new nation with its own particular qualities, and its own heredity. Therefore it's only natural that in many ways Russia felt foreign and unfamiliar to old, small European family, however classical Russian art, philosophy, literature and science were undeniably European in its nature and because you are obviously missing the whole cultural layer unifying the two of them, you are missing the essence of connection between Russia and Europe.
The way you logically built the second part of your statement is faulty again; Soviet Union was relevant only for seventy years or so out of 1,000 years of Russian history, and during this history Europe initially didn't have any "strong democratic traditions" that you are trying to shove in every part of conversation; in fact Europe used to be every bit as absolutist and conservative as Russia, with its own monarchs, empires, revolutions and oppressive states ( not to mention inquisition,) and it was the Age of Enlightenment when Europe and Russia really parted their ways in this respect, with democracy paving its way in Europe and with Russia clinging to its old absolutist ways. So if I straighten out you faulty logic, then you can probably see the connection better, and your initial "wow-wow" becomes irrelevant.

Quote:
You are dreaming. Just like North Korea today Soviet Union was a militaristic state with a huge military plus nuclear weapons. Other than this neither Soviet cars, nor computers nor any other advanced products or machinery could ever compete with what was produced in the West and the US. What advanced technology came out of Russia in the past 50 years... Name it.
Let's go again over it again, slowly ( although it really becomes tiresome to comment on your obvious blunders.)
Let's separate again what you are ( once again ) lumping up together and where exactly you are making a mistake.
You can't put North Korea and Soviet Union in one sentence in this context, because as we all know the third world countries can be as "technologically advanced" as the first world countries allow them to be, and that means that North Korea received its nuclear reactor from Russia and the rest ( whatever was necessary for development of nuclear weapon) from Pakistan, which in its turn was supplied with it by the US. That took place in the 90ies, and this process hypothetically could have been controlled, had the US not supplied Pakistan with the know-how.
In case of Russia however the US couldn't really control anything, because
unlike the third world countries, Russia could develop her own nuclear weapons. Why? Because Russia belongs to the same European family of culture and science, in spite of certain differences with "main stream" Europe.
So now when we are clear on that, we can proceed to the next logical conclusion, why it was essential for the US to eliminate Russia as potential competitor once and for all, when the US saw its chance. It was not because "Russia couldn't produce any good machinery cars or computers" comparably to the US, but precisely because it was capable of producing the kind of military technology that mattered in geopolitical struggle, and because it was a country that clearly pursued its own geopolitical interests and politics, independently from the US.

Quote:
No and no. Russia culturally and socially was never a truly European country. RAther than on Eeuropean ideals of equality and democracy it was based on Bysantine absolutism. I don't think any Europens even think about inviting Russia to European Union so Russia strays even further away from the rest of Europe. At this point Russian still need visas to even visit European Union.
I don' think that Russia was ever meant to be in European Union; it's a separate entity and always meant to be, in the same manner probably as the United states were never meant to be part of European Union, in spite of the fact that America was founded by Europeans. The big proponent of of "European unification" is actually no one else but Putin himself. So far Europeans are wise enough to keep him at arm's lenght, however this rejection is putting yet a new spin on events.


Quote:
Nah. He copied whatever he could despite protests from both oligarchy and commoners. But that's irrelevant here.
Of course once you've said "nah," it made it all true, supposedly.
However in the reality Russians were picking and choosing the best pieces of European culture, that they saw fit for their own likes and needs; be that Italian school of painting, French ballet or German system of education. Scandinavian countries, Holland and Germany initially were Peter's first picks, but European influence didn't stop there. The only country whose culture affected Russians the least was probably England, and that's how it was suposed to be, since English national character and Russian national character are probably lying on the opposite sides of a specter when it comes to European family, as much as their respective languages.
I hope this helps your education, and while I am at that, why don't I re-post these links, that you would see the classics of Russian culture; expand your horizons on what European art can offer.

//www.city-data.com/forum/fine-...inting-22.html

(PP 20 to 31 approximately.)

and

//www.city-data.com/forum/fine-...-museum-5.html
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Old 09-01-2012, 12:13 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
88,003 posts, read 81,903,060 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
You are so naive, erasure. What you see in Russia today started decades ago and by the same class of people that is ruling Russia until today. It has been like this for a long, long time...

Do you believe in fairy tales? Where would this class of enterprenuers with enough cash to buy entire factories come from? Hot dog, sorry, periozhki stands? Your priviledged apparatchik, or as we used to call them "red bourgeoisie" simply stayed with power only exchanging political power for economical one. Your beloved Communists still run Russia, erasure.

As you know Putting is an ex-KGB colonel, you don't think one could get to the rank of colonel in KGB unless proved to be absolutely loyal and obedient to the system.
You have a lot of nerve calling erasure naive, and insinuating he/she doesn't know the history of his/her own country, and lecturing him/her. You have no idea who you're talking to. You've conjured up a cartoon in your mind, and that's who you imagine you're talking to, like in the old Boris & Natasha cartoons, or something.

And by the way, if you want to be taken seriously (good luck with that), at least learn to spell English properly. Maybe erasure would be willing to tutor you, if you ask nicely.
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Old 09-01-2012, 12:22 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
88,003 posts, read 81,903,060 times
Reputation: 92080
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
Ha ha ha. There was a progess in Russia between 1945 and 1980 but nowhere near the progress experienced by Germany, France or Japan during the same time. Soviet economy, like any other economy not based on free market was wasteful and inefficient. Even today Italy has higher GDP than Russia
Germany and France benefitted from the Marshall Plan, Stalin turned it down. Russia also had to maintain a military, while Germany and Japan didn't. Forced collectivization, and a leader who cannibalized his own people, sending them to forced labor camps didn't help build a strong economy for Russia, either, though a great leap forward was made in heavy industry, in spite of everything. I wonder how well the US would have bounced back from ruin with no outside aid if it had been invaded and had major cities bombed out, and lost a large percentage of its male population.

I can't believe this thread is still lurching and staggering forward.
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