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Old 09-05-2012, 11:27 PM
 
26,847 posts, read 22,671,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
US didn't plunder Russia after communism: there was nothing to plunder.
I never said they did, but they sure played the role in what took place back then. I've already posted enough of material on a subject.

(You are just ignorant and I am trying to help your education a bit. )

PS.
Quote:
Stalin was never a solution. Solution would be making Russia a modern country with personal freedoms, democracy and free market economy.
But this could never happen - Russians are too stupid for that.
Right. I'm sure that Calvinism promoted among the first American settlers was teaching them that hard work and "personal freedoms" bring happiness and prosperity.
Too bad that black slaves couldn't quite figure out the "prosperity" part.
Apparently they were too stupid for that.

Last edited by erasure; 09-05-2012 at 11:47 PM..
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Old 09-05-2012, 11:57 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,275 posts, read 108,342,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
Where were these traditions cultivated? What are the examples? All I see is one absolutist Byzantine ruler after another...
The reference was to Russian peasant traditions (this has come up more than once in this discussion, and you keep missing it).

Erasure, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the traditional practice of a form of collectivism makes Russian peasants the original "leftists", as you said earlier, or "communists", any more than Native American collective use of the land and its resources would make them "leftists". Just because Marx declared this "primitive Communism" doesn't mean that State communism somehow came naturally to people. When Stalin forced collectivization on the nation, it caused major trauma. The indigenous practices were much more nuanced, and often involved private grazing or fishing or farming rights, and the production didn't all get turned over to the collective. I think some oversimplification (or wishful thinking) was done by communist theorists, to make these traditions fit into a certain mold.
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:05 AM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,804,771 times
Reputation: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I never said they did, but they sure played the role in what took place back then. I've already posted enough of material on a subject.

(You are just ignorant and I am trying to help your education a bit. )
Russia was plundered by Russians, the Same aparatchiks that were ruling Russia for the past 60 years. You yourself raised this class of priviledged Soviet citizens.
You can't blame America every time it rains in Moscow.




Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post

Right. I'm sure that Calvinism promoted among the first American settlers was teaching them that hard work and "personal freedoms" bring happiness and prosperity.
Too bad that black slaves couldn't quite figure out the "prosperity" part.
Apparently they were too stupid for that.

Are you comparing Russians to slaves?
You maybe onto something.Communists definetely treated them as such.
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:14 AM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,804,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
The reference was to Russian peasant traditions (this has come up more than once in this discussion, and you keep missing it).
Cooperatives were popular all over Europe. What does it have to dowith democracy? We were talking about democratic traditions in Russia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Erasure, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the traditional practice of a form of collectivism makes Russian peasants the original "leftists", as you said earlier, or "communists", any more than Native American collective use of the land and its resources would make them "leftists". Just because Marx declared this "primitive Communism" doesn't mean that State communism somehow came naturally to people. When Stalin forced collectivization on the nation, it caused major trauma. The indigenous practices were much more nuanced, and often involved private grazing or fishing or farming rights, and the production didn't all get turned over to the collective. I think some oversimplification (or wishful thinking) was done by communist theorists, to make these traditions fit into a certain mold.
There is no such a thing as "state comunism". According to this idiot Marx communism involves a stateless and classless society.
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:18 AM
 
1,725 posts, read 2,073,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
We were talking about democratic traditions in Russia.
You are merely repeating again and again - "there was never any democracy in Russia". Facts are not on your side:

Ancient times: direct democracy.
Feudalism: direct democracy with some (usually slight) power in the hands of princes.
Russian Empire: direct democracy with more and more power in the hands of princes.
USSR: direct democracy with a lot of power in the hands of "princes".
RF: liberal/representative democracy - a hell of a lot of power in the hands of "princes" with only islands of direct democracy. Slowly moving towards the Soviet system.
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Old 09-06-2012, 03:59 AM
 
272 posts, read 909,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
You are merely repeating again and again - "there was never any democracy in Russia". Facts are not on your side:

Ancient times: direct democracy.
Feudalism: direct democracy with some (usually slight) power in the hands of princes.
Russian Empire: direct democracy with more and more power in the hands of princes.
USSR: direct democracy with a lot of power in the hands of "princes".
RF: liberal/representative democracy - a hell of a lot of power in the hands of "princes" with only islands of direct democracy. Slowly moving towards the Soviet system.


You extracted such a pearl of knowledge from your Scientific Marxism classes? When I'm somewhat drunk, I love to read Communist history textbooks in which they apply Dialectical Materialism, I do admire the writers of such books, they could figure out in the list of famous Russian Sci-Fi writers. By the way, what happened to Russian Sci-Fi?

They should have written such books following the format of Nu pogodi cartoons, the hare would be the wise proletariat and the wolf, the plusvalue accumulating monster!!!


Last edited by Pizarro; 09-06-2012 at 04:28 AM..
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Old 09-06-2012, 04:11 AM
 
272 posts, read 909,015 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Oh, I believe that Stalin with his "chistka"s and collectivization killed quite a few people, but the numbers are exaggerated by the West - that I am sure about, even looking at recently opened archives..


I suppose that you are joking, or you are either a diehard Stalinist with more than 90 years or a Stalinist Skinhead with flat encefalogram.... or somebody from Stalin's town in Georgia. But your family were minor apparatchiks not even part of the Nomenklatura. So you must be from a Russian urban tribe, "Retro Stalinists shopping in Western Gulags".

Last edited by Pizarro; 09-06-2012 at 04:48 AM..
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Old 09-06-2012, 06:35 AM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,804,771 times
Reputation: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
You are merely repeating again and again - "there was never any democracy in Russia". Facts are not on your side
What facts?


Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
Ancient times: direct democracy.
Democracy in ancient Russia? LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
Feudalism: direct democracy with some (usually slight) power in the hands of princes.
Russian Empire: direct democracy with more and more power in the hands of princes.
USSR: direct democracy with a lot of power in the hands of "princes".
RF: liberal/representative democracy - a hell of a lot of power in the hands of "princes" with only islands of direct democracy. Slowly moving towards the Soviet system.
ROTFL. Russian feudalism and Tsar's absolutism as examples of direct democracy. You are beyond hillarious, Ivan.
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:23 AM
 
26,847 posts, read 22,671,858 times
Reputation: 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
Of course, this evil West hates Russia because it has always been so successful ROTFL
"Hate" wouldn't be the right word for the most part; rather "weary," and the US upper class in particular.
The ideas of communism are nothing new in Europe ( in fact "The ghost of Communism is wandering in Europe" are not Russian words; this is the beginning of the Manifest of the Communist party of Germany written by Marx as now I can see it.)
I don't know about Europeans with all their left ideas, but to America in particular communism is a death threat, because the whole thing that propels her to the top of the world is the power of capital.
So as long as that "Ghost of Communism" is wandering the Earth, America's future as Europe's legitimate daughter is never safe. And as long as that illegitimate child of Europe - Russia - is alive, that threat is never out of the picture.
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:53 AM
 
26,847 posts, read 22,671,858 times
Reputation: 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
The reference was to Russian peasant traditions (this has come up more than once in this discussion, and you keep missing it).

Erasure, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the traditional practice of a form of collectivism makes Russian peasants the original "leftists", as you said earlier, or "communists", any more than Native American collective use of the land and its resources would make them "leftists".

Ruth I meant in Europe of course.
That Russia ( out of all countries in Europe) originally shares similarities with Native Indians ( or other indigenous people,) in spite of undeniably European train of thought behind her philosophy, art and literature, might shed a light why a big part of her population was kept in slavery for long time ( I am talking serfdom of course, which has been abolished at the same time as slavery in the US by the way. (I don't think it's a coincidence.) Remember that Indians ( whose origins and cultures goes back god knows when,) and who clearly share something in common with Russian "mir" were simply removed from the face of the Earth, in order to give space for people with different set of ideas ( I am talking Anglo-Saxons at this point.)

Quote:
Just because Marx declared this "primitive Communism" doesn't mean that State communism somehow came naturally to people.
Of course not, but the ground for it was already there in Russia more than in any other European country.

Quote:
When Stalin forced collectivization on the nation, it caused major trauma.
Absolutely, and a lot of tragedies. However in retrospective we need to look how crucial it was for the whole implementation of new ideas in such illiterate, poor, and predominantly agrarian country that Russia was at that time. ( I just don't have time to expand this subject more for the moment being, sorry )

Quote:
The indigenous practices were much more nuanced, and often involved private grazing or fishing or farming rights, and the production didn't all get turned over to the collective. I think some oversimplification (or wishful thinking) was done by communist theorists, to make these traditions fit into a certain mold.
No doubt about it. There was something undeniably false and crude about all their theories ( I am not talking Marx - I'm not even all that familiar with his writings, lol) but I am talking Lenin and the whole bunch of Russian revolutionaries. In fact I thought that they were so wrong, that I didn't even bother to "listen" to any of them. I still have very vague ideas about who Trotsky was or what was his deal, or why Kirov was assassinated. The fact that my grand-mother was allergic to any Soviet propaganda and the TV was going off as soon as one of those revolutionary movie would come up, didn't help it much either)))
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