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Old 09-06-2012, 03:48 PM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,804,771 times
Reputation: 624

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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post


Says who, one of the most ignorant people on this forum?
Instead of repeating Hitler's propaganda and shedding crocodile tears, educate yourself on what Russian intelligentsia is;
I know exactly what it is. The white Russian intelligentsia has either emmigrated or was eradicated. It has been replaced by new intelligentsia trained in Soviet universities that together with science provided Communist indoctrination.
Russian youth, similar to Nazi youth was indoctrinated through schools and organizations like Pioneers and later in life Komsomol.
Just to be addmitted to university in Soviet times you had to be approved as loyal to the regime. Later in life to
have a teaching or scientific career you had to be positevely evaluated by the Party which had its basic cell in every school and university. You could easily be expelled from university or your career as an academic teacher could end in a split second if the regime found you to be "dangerous element". It didn't take much, stupid joke or lack enthusiasm marching on MayDay holiday would achieve that.
In the same time Soviet government deemed unnecessary and banned entire branches of science such as sociology, genetics or cybernetics / computer science.

In this atmosphere of repression Russian intelligentsia developed as either willing or opportunistic part of the regime. Years and years of such policies made sure that only the people loyal to the government were advancing academically or publishing their work.

That's a truth about Soviet intelligentsia.

Last edited by rebel12; 09-06-2012 at 03:56 PM..
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:03 PM
 
26,847 posts, read 22,671,858 times
Reputation: 10055
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
I know exactly what it is. The white Russian intelligentsia has either emmigrated or was eradicated. It has been replaced by new intelligentsia trained in Soviet universities that together with science provided Communist indoctrination.
Rebel, you should learn not to rush with incorrect answers, and you definitely, definitely need to step up reading comprehension skills, otherwise you'll never get a passing grade.
Now let's go over it once again, slowly, that you would understand what Russian professor is saying on a subject, instead of listening to that little voice in your head broadcasting indoctrinations of the Faux News.
So pay attention here;

"To understand the sources of Russian communism and make clear to oneself the
character of the Russian revolution, one must understand that singular phenomenon
which in Russia is called 'intelligentsia'. Western people would make a mistake if they
identified the Russian intelligentsia with those who in the West are known as
'intellectuals'.

Are you getting it now, Rebel?
The dreadful Communist revolution in Russia has been thought up and orchestrated by the very Russian intelligentsia of Tzarist times, by people like Herzen, Belinsky, Ogarev, Bakunin ( the list goes on) and not all Russian intelligentsia "has either emmigrated or was eradicated" as you are trying to present here, not to mention that there was no such thing as "white intelligentsia" in Russia to begin with. There was "White Army," but to be an officer ( or general) in such Army did not automatically meant to be "intelligentsia," lol.
In the same manner getting higher education in Soviet times didn't mean automatically entering the ranks of intelligentsia. Remember, Berdayev warned that "Western people would make a mistake if they
identified the Russian intelligentsia with those who in the West are known as
'intellectuals'." It would be a mistake as well to assume that all *indoctrinated Soviet youth* in Universities was automatically becoming part of "Soviet intelligentsia"
And since this particular layer ( intelligentsia that is) was present through all levels of the society already back in Tzarist times, ( remember, it was never referred to as "class" in Soviet times as well,) it was impossible to eradicate it all or to force it to emigrate. As long as Russian nation is alive, the Russian intelligentsia will be always there.
The rest of your usual drivel is just that - the drivel of the Faux News propaganda, with very little knowledge on a subject. So you can give a high five to Pizzario yet again.

PS. Oh, and if you want to learn something about Native Indians - better ask Ruth. She knows, and she might be even more patient than me with your learning disabilities.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:38 PM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,804,771 times
Reputation: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Rebel, you should learn not to rush with incorrect answers, and you definitely, definitely need to step up reading comprehension skills, otherwise you'll never get a passing grade.
Now let's go over it once again, slowly, that you would understand what Russian professor is saying on a subject, instead of listening to that little voice in your head broadcasting indoctrinations of the Faux News.
So pay attention here;

"To understand the sources of Russian communism and make clear to oneself the
character of the Russian revolution, one must understand that singular phenomenon
which in Russia is called 'intelligentsia'. Western people would make a mistake if they
identified the Russian intelligentsia with those who in the West are known as
'intellectuals'.

Are you getting it now, Rebel?
The dreadful Communist revolution in Russia has been thought up and orchestrated by the very Russian intelligentsia of Tzarist times, by people like Herzen, Belinsky, Ogarev, Bakunin ( the list goes on) and not all Russian intelligentsia "has either emmigrated or was eradicated" as you are trying to present here, not to mention that there was no such thing as "white intelligentsia" in Russia to begin with. There was "White Army," but to be an officer ( or general) in such Army did not automatically meant to be "intelligentsia," lol.
In the same manner getting higher education in Soviet times didn't mean automatically entering the ranks of intelligentsia. Remember, Berdayev warned that "Western people would make a mistake if they
identified the Russian intelligentsia with those who in the West are known as
'intellectuals'." It would be a mistake as well to assume that all *indoctrinated Soviet youth* in Universities was automatically becoming part of "Soviet intelligentsia"
And since this particular layer ( intelligentsia that is) was present through all levels of the society already back in Tzarist times, ( remember, it was never referred to as "class" in Soviet times as well,) it was impossible to eradicate it all or to force it to emigrate. As long as Russian nation is alive, the Russian intelligentsia will be always there.
The rest of your usual drivel is just that - the drivel of the Faux News propaganda, with very little knowledge on a subject. So you can give a high five to Pizzario yet again.

PS. Oh, and if you want to learn something about Native Indians - better ask Ruth. She knows, and she might be even more patient than me with your learning disabilities.
Why don't you just admit that Russian intelligentsia as described by you never existed? You can't define it, you can't even say what were the criteria for belonging to such. In conlcusion: I don't believe such a thing never existed.

Now for the Russian educated class, as I said, the Communist disposed of it and replaced with indoctrinated, loyal sons of farmers and factory workers.
Russian educated class is one of the most loyal defenders of Communism. After all if it wasn't for the Commies it would never come to existance.

PS. You seem to abandon your Car ownership in Europe thread.
Don't you want to argue with European a little more? After all what do they know about their own countries? LOL

Last edited by rebel12; 09-06-2012 at 11:50 PM..
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Old 09-07-2012, 03:45 AM
 
272 posts, read 909,015 times
Reputation: 191
Rebel

Soviet technocrats and apparatchiks never were proletarians. The Russian Revolution was not conceived by proletarians. All the educated (petty bourgeois, bourgeois and professionals) were not all removed or left, if that would have been the case, the USSR would have floundered in five years. All the scientifics and geniuses that created the great industrial complex that defeated Hitler had bourgeois origins. As to the "intelligentsia", what is that? That's a myth.

Stalin removed any trace of intelligentsia.
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Old 09-07-2012, 05:45 AM
 
1,725 posts, read 2,073,355 times
Reputation: 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
Democracy in ancient Russia? LOL
Just for the fun of it - try to describe, what system did those peasant tribes have?

Quote:
ROTFL. Russian feudalism and Tsar's absolutism as examples of direct democracy. You are beyond hillarious, Ivan.
Close to 100% of people lived in villages, ruled by its inhabitants.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:19 AM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,804,771 times
Reputation: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
Just for the fun of it - try to describe, what system did those peasant tribes have?


Close to 100% of people lived in villages, ruled by its inhabitants.
I don't even know what you are talking about. Primitive systems of tribal organization and tribal property were typical for early stateges of social development of any culture, anywhere in the world..
And no, villagers did not rule themselves, the villagers were serfs who did not have anything a say about anything.
Because nobody ever asked.
You are tripping Erasure.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:03 AM
 
1,725 posts, read 2,073,355 times
Reputation: 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
I don't even know what you are talking about. Primitive systems of tribal organization and tribal property were typical for early stateges of social development of any culture, anywhere in the world..
I didn't say anything about Russian uniqueness.

Quote:
And no, villagers did not rule themselves, the villagers were serfs who did not have anything a say about anything.
Before feudalism there were simply no serfdom. About half a millenia after feudalism established, it did appear, but:

1. It evolved from freedom towards lack of it over the centuries.
2. Serfdom in Russia has never been universal.
3. Where it was, it was one of three types: peasant as an entrepreneur, as an employee, as a slave.
4. Serfdom primarily concerns economic system, not political.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:52 AM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,804,771 times
Reputation: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
I didn't say anything about Russian uniqueness.


Before feudalism there were simply no serfdom. About half a millenia after feudalism established, it did appear, but:

1. It evolved from freedom towards lack of it over the centuries.
2. Serfdom in Russia has never been universal.
3. Where it was, it was one of three types: peasant as an entrepreneur, as an employee, as a slave.
4. Serfdom primarily concerns economic system, not political.
Say what? LOL
Can you be a serf or a slave and have any political power? LOL
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:06 AM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,804,771 times
Reputation: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizarro View Post
Rebel

Soviet technocrats and apparatchiks never were proletarians. The Russian Revolution was not conceived by proletarians. All the educated (petty bourgeois, bourgeois and professionals) were not all removed or left, if that would have been the case, the USSR would have floundered in five years. All the scientifics and geniuses that created the great industrial complex that defeated Hitler had bourgeois origins. As to the "intelligentsia", what is that? That's a myth.

Stalin removed any trace of intelligentsia.
Pizarro,

If you look at the admission system to Soviet universities, where technocrats and intelligentsia is born, you realize that it favored people with worker/farmer family background and discriminated against the previous educated class. After the revolution Communists never trusted Russian educated class, correctly assuming that they would be able to see the absurdity of the system more than anybody else. It couldn't do away with having doctors and engineers as professions so it replaced the old educated class with the new one, educated and indoctrinated in Soviet universities, those whose background would make them loyal to the system. Why so loyal? Because the system gave them an opportunity to get educated and to exist as a class, offered them an opportunity to advance.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,564 posts, read 12,847,739 times
Reputation: 9400
My Dad was there in the early stages..He actually served in the Kremlin as an honor guard for Stalin..Every guard he had harbored the ambition of killing the s o b . But of course if someone close to him did they would forfeit their life. What my father said was that the bureaucracy became so top heavy that you had too many doing nothing but paper work with a small percentage doing the actual real work.

As for the intelligent class..Those that submitted and were compliant to the Soviets were put in important positions. Those that they suspected were faking it and not truly compliant were put on trial and shot...As for my grandfather..It was assumed that they killed him right after my father who was 14 fled...Decades later we found out they harassed him for six solid years attempting to get a conviction...so they shot him and THEN put him on trial and found him guilty.

The five year plans did not work out for one simple reason...as far as food production..If a worker managed to reach a quota as far as plowing a field..He was given a small bonus and an incentive. What my father told me was...Instead of putting the plow to a depth of a foot...workers would cheat and only sink the plow in a few inches...in order to rush through the job and get more done and receive the bonus. So inevitably there was continue crop failure and low yield.

When my dad's friends - some of who were from wealthy old Russian families would gather at our house...There was one word that they used to show loathing and contempt for the Soviet system...that nasty insult was the word BUREAUCRAT.


In my view it was huge government that cause the collapse of the Soviet Union...to create real wealth and sustainability...people had to do real work- Most just faked it...much like what is going on with western capitalist systems of today..no one is really generating real wealth- Everyone is faking it- with the digital age...it is getting worse.
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