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Old 08-06-2012, 06:58 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,539 posts, read 21,162,297 times
Reputation: 16936

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jt800 View Post
Even the scientists who engineered the atomic bombs were not fully aware of the long term effects of the radiation poisoning. They thought it would be a very short lived thing.
Exactly. Nor did they imagne the degree of damage. Truman was briefed on the scientists expectations, but they'd never used one. He thought of it as a 'bigger bomb'. They drove US troops through the result when it was still a death zone if radiation since they didn't know.

My dad would have been in that invasion too. As part of it in a few months there would be more bombs ready, set to be dropped on the major Japanese cities. And if they hadn't surrendered they would have been. It's not just the million men who wouldn't be alive without the surrender but all the kids they had and their kids who would not have existed. I'm likely one of them.

And since even the hardened troops were horrified by what they saw, and the world looked at the pictures, and felt horror, for it did NOT just look like the results of a 'bigger bomb', when they were hanging over the world, ready to turn it into a wasteland, everyone knew there would be no winners, and everyone kept their finger off the trigger.

If we hadn't then, and had invaded and lost the horror of the bomb within the horrific cost of our own, would we have taken such a singular notice of what had become the ultiment weapon?

Why have other scenerios been explored like emp bombs, which simply remove all aspects of modern life so there is something left to occupy, and the ultimately rejected neutron bomb, which killed with radiations that left the buildings intact for later, been developed other than we had something so much worse to look forward to nobody ever wanted to have to.
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:03 PM
 
5,756 posts, read 3,976,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jt800 View Post
My Father was at Okinawa with the Marine Corps after having taken that island.

They were already told that in 6 to 8 weeks his Marine Division would be sent to invade mainland Japan.

Estimates of US casualties were in the 1 Million range if that had to be done.

My Dad always told me that if it wasn't for the A-Bomb, I probably wouldn't be alive today.

The bomb also SAVED millions of Japanese deaths.
My brother in laws father was at Okinawa and said that very same thing he would not haved survived an invasion of Japan proper.
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:05 PM
 
25,728 posts, read 16,346,047 times
Reputation: 15914
Quote:
Originally Posted by carterstamp View Post
Look, dude, I don't celebrate the deployment of a nuclear weapon, even if it was a necessary evil. What I DO celebrate is the bravery of our troops in WW 2, and the Greatest Generation that made victory happen.
And I respect the Japanese troops as well to a point. Most of them were just regular soldiers like our guys. Fighting for their homes and their families and filled full of lies by their leadership.

Look at how nice the Japanese people are, I think we all learned a lesson that will go on and on about humanity and the evils of war. The fact that we had to kill so many of those wonderful people because our leaders were either corrupt or power drunk.....it's sad beyond words.

As Carterstamp said--a necessary evil and for my own selfish reasons I am thankful they dropped it because my Dad said many times he would not have survived the invasion of the main islands. He had been wounded 3 times and almost killed 6 months before they dropped the bomb. He was on an invasion ship in the first wave of an invasion of the main island when Japan surrendered and was one of the very first American Marines to step foot on Japanese soil. It's weird to think I wouldn't be here if they wouldn't have dropped the bomb or if it wouldn't have worked.
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Va. Beach
6,392 posts, read 5,145,982 times
Reputation: 2283
My tag says it all.

Si vis pacem para bellum
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:08 PM
 
14,985 posts, read 23,761,138 times
Reputation: 26468
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
Let's be crystal clear about one thing: the decision did not merely result in the deaths of innocents, it intended the deaths of innocents. Therein lies the evil of the act.



When you find the idiot who says indecision was the best choice, give him a good swift kick for me. Until then try arguing with me instead of the straw man in your head.



First, according to these men who knew a little more than you or me about the situation, Japanese surrender was imminent and not even a land invasion was necessary. Second, even if surrender were not imminent, it isn't clear that a final land invasion or inaction were the only two alternatives to atomic bombs. Third, even in the event of a land invasion, the casualty estimates seem way overblown (20 million Japanese casualties? At the time there were already 8,000,000 refugees crowded in rural villages due to the destruction of cities.) Finally - and this is the only point that really matters - indiscriminately targeting 80,000 effective non-combatants (whether "potential" combatants or not) is a "decision" that should never have been on the table in the first place.
# of men that opposed the atomic bomb in 1945- 15 of 130,000 million
# of people that supported atomic bomb in 1945 - 129,999,985 (the rest of population of US in 1945).
Seriously that's about how much those comments are worth. Ex presidents and scientists, doesn't matter. And they totally dismiss your first concept, which I see you are now backpedaling on - that the bombing was immoral. Now, with one of your arguments failed, you are saying that is was not needed because the end of the war was immenent.

Guess where the japanese casualty estimate of 20 million came from - THE JAPANESE THEMSELVES! The Vice Chief of the Imperial Japanese Navy General Staff, Vice Admiral Takijirō Ōnishi, predicted up to 20 million Japanese deaths in the invasion. In 1945, Japan had 2.3 million troops in Japan, 4 million other military staff, and 28 million militia, basically the men and women of the island in which they expected to sacrafice their lives for the emperor. I mean really, is this a realistic debate? You are talking about a people in that time that were willing and able to fly human suicide bombs into aircraft carriers. About people that fought to almost the last man in each island hop. In Pelelue only 100 JIA soldiers were taken alive out of 10,000. I mean seriously, are we even having this debate? - there was no surrendor plans, period! It's unrealistic. Nothing supports it, not their culture at the time, not their combat history, not the vaugue cease fire overtures to Soviet itermidiearies that people are interpreting as calls for surrendor, nothing! It's fiction, a fantasy! Unless they were shown we could turn their country into a glass sheet with impunity. That we did.

Last edited by Dd714; 08-06-2012 at 07:26 PM..
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,567 posts, read 12,762,532 times
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From what I understand - Japan was on the verge of surrender prior the nuking...and the nukes were dropped just to see if they worked - Kind of a final testing on live subjects and infrastructure....true or not...Japan deserved what they got...I just wish that they would have nuked Berlin and curbed the arrogance of Germany once and for all.
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,567 posts, read 12,762,532 times
Reputation: 9398
Don't believe that Japan fully grasped what an atomic weapon was even after it's use. They may have thought that some sort of mass conventional bombing had taken place where large multiple detonations occurred at high altitude - unless Japan's intelligence service was aware of the development of nuclear devices...which is unlikely...Even those who made the bomb were astounded by what they achieved..


I still say the bombings were a live testing and a punitive measure...The last hard slap in the face of Japan's imperialism. Japan like Germany were driven by a fanaticism ....that knew no bounds....that fanatic mindset was burned away that day.
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:22 PM
 
Location: San Antonio Texas
11,431 posts, read 18,922,875 times
Reputation: 5224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
67 years ago yesterday, Aug. 5, 1945 U.S. time, the first atomic bomb ever used in combat was dropped on Hiroshima, Japan. Three days later, on August 8, another was carried over Kokura, Japan. Kokura was found to be obscured by a 70% cloud cover, so the plane was diverted to Nagasaki, where the bomb was dropped. Approx. 200,000 Japanese, and zero Americans, were killed as a result of the two bombings.

Less than 2 weeks later, Japan surrendered, ending WWII. As a result, the planned Allied invasion of the Japanese homeland was called off. The half million American deaths that were expected, plus more than a million Japanese deaths, never happened as a result.
Hiroshima is August 6:

BBC ON THIS DAY | 6 | 1995: Japan mourns Hiroshima anniversary
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:34 PM
 
14,985 posts, read 23,761,138 times
Reputation: 26468
Quote:
Originally Posted by PullMyFinger View Post
And I respect the Japanese troops as well to a point. Most of them were just regular soldiers like our guys. Fighting for their homes and their families and filled full of lies by their leadership.
Be careful here, lots of Japanese troops committed some very terrible attrocities, and their degree and widespread behavior indicates that they were not one-offs. Yes they were brainwashed to a certain degree, and mistreated by their superiors. But the acts and behavior committed by the regular japanese soldier in places like Nanking were in no way, shape, or form similiar to the how our soldiers behaved. Frankly, they were barbaric and savage beyone belief.
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:37 PM
 
Location: SoCal
1,242 posts, read 1,934,979 times
Reputation: 848
Anybody who calls this an atrocity certainly has never been shot at and perhaps can't see the big picture and don't realize that there aren't any winners in a war to begin with.

Every decision in a war is weighed. It's more or less the better of two evils. Like it or not, dropping "the bomb" on Hiroshima was probably the most prudent thing to do. Sometimes the only way to stop an enemy is through a massive show of force. When I was in Afghanistan we would overwhelm the enemy with massive firepower and a lot of times we would call Artey or Air to level entire grids at a time. Why? because that's the only way they would stop. When somebody is fanatic to the point where there is no persuading them, the only option left is to absolutely destroy them.
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