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(Now that I think of it BTW, I can't say I know for certain the name of the camp this man went to.)
My father, like your's, was a WWII vet. He rarely talked about his own experiences. (Which were considerable.) He worked with a lot of men who were also vets and as he got older he started talking about THEIR stories. The stories he'd heard from them in friendships formed over the years. I met some of these men and you would never know what they went through. They came back, got married, found jobs, had us kids. And they were men who had been on Corregidor or in a POW camp or had been a part of D-Day. It's unbelievable what they kept inside.
We did not know my father's entire story until he began to write it down at the request of his VFW/American Legion, who planned to honor him at their annual Veteran's Day dinner. The year before, they'd decided to honor one vet of their group each year at the dinner, and this second year it was my father. He wrote it down in his scrunchy little engineer handwriting, from the time he got to Europe until he was wounded--lost both legs below the knee on March 3, 1945, in a battle to liberate a little town in Alsace-Lorraine, about five miles from the German border. He got as far as getting back to the United States after recuperating in England and being fitted for his prosthetic legs. Interestingly, he had just gotten a stump revision at the age of 78 and was undergoing physical therapy to be refitted for new legs so he could walk again, so I can imagine this was all reawakening those terrible memories.
Dad died of a heart attack on October 30, 1999. My sister took his notebook and transcribed his story, and it was read at the dinner to honor him posthumously two weeks later. He had told us bits and pieces, but never before did we have the whole story. I don't think he ever did reveal everything he saw.
Auschwitz was liberated by the 322nd Rifle Division of the Red Army on January 27, 1945.
I wasn't aware of any waves of American GI's going into Auschwitz. When did that happen?
My friend John was a truck driver in the Army. I do not know what division or regiment he was part of. If he ever told me, I've long-since forgotten. I just remember him talking about how shocked they were, and how they really couldn't even take in what they were seeing.
Yes, that's included in the book I mentioned above, The Liberators. The Germans in the surrounding villages swore up and down that they knew nothing. The soldier called bs on that because you began to smell the rotting corpses up to five miles away. Eisenhower had the soldiers go round up the locals and force them to bury the corpses. There are photos of this in the book. After that, it became the norm to do that each time the Allies came upon another camp--they'd go get the nearby Germans and have them do the cleanup. As the author says, the one phrase you will hear over and over again from the eyewitnesses is that the bodies were stacked like cordwood. They had to be buried properly, and they made the Germans do it. A small and distasteful inconvenience for turning their eyes from what was happening in their backyards.
And there was the town of Gardelegen. Over a thousand concentration camp survivors had been forced into a large grain barn on their forced march away from the Americans. A little more than a day before US troops came to the town, with the trains bogged down, the local nazi party leader, with a few trainees and the Hitler youth, trapped the mostly political prisoners in the barn and set it afire. The Americans decreed that each victum must be given a single grave and the family that buried them was responisble for caring for the grave from that time on. The bodies were several days past death, burned and a horrible mess, but the town's men were rounded up and forced at bayonette point to pick them up and formally bury them. The few survivors, some six, were cared for by locals forced by the Americans.
This was a town which couldn't deny they knew, since they were the ones that executed them by fire. Some of the atrocities were long running and established. Some were sudden and unplanned. But the citizens of Gardelegen drew special responsibility with personal blood on their hands.
Yes, that's included in the book I mentioned above, The Liberators. The Germans in the surrounding villages swore up and down that they knew nothing. The soldier called bs on that because you began to smell the rotting corpses up to five miles away. Eisenhower had the soldiers go round up the locals and force them to bury the corpses. There are photos of this in the book. After that, it became the norm to do that each time the Allies came upon another camp--they'd go get the nearby Germans and have them do the cleanup. As the author says, the one phrase you will hear over and over again from the eyewitnesses is that the bodies were stacked like cordwood. They had to be buried properly, and they made the Germans do it. A small and distasteful inconvenience for turning their eyes from what was happening in their backyards.
I don't think this statement is true at all. Just look at the T4 and nobody knew about this, even after the church got wind of it. But doing nothing is that the church does best anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47
And there was the town of Gardelegen. Over a thousand concentration camp survivors had been forced into a large grain barn on their forced march away from the Americans. A little more than a day before US troops came to the town, with the trains bogged down, the local nazi party leader, with a few trainees and the Hitler youth, trapped the mostly political prisoners in the barn and set it afire. The Americans decreed that each victum must be given a single grave and the family that buried them was responisble for caring for the grave from that time on. The bodies were several days past death, burned and a horrible mess, but the town's men were rounded up and forced at bayonette point to pick them up and formally bury them. The few survivors, some six, were cared for by locals forced by the Americans.
This was a town which couldn't deny they knew, since they were the ones that executed them by fire. Some of the atrocities were long running and established. Some were sudden and unplanned. But the citizens of Gardelegen drew special responsibility with personal blood on their hands.
I just read up on this and those were Nazis such as SS and so on, and it was not in that town but north of it. So, saying "citizens of Gardelegen" is wrong, because that's referring to the general population.
I don't think this statement is true at all. Just look at the T4 and nobody knew about this, even after the church got wind of it. But doing nothing is that the church does best anyway.
I just read up on this and those were Nazis such as SS and so on, and it was not in that town but north of it. So, saying "citizens of Gardelegen" is wrong, because that's referring to the general population.
The grain barn was on the outskirts of town, but it was a rural town. The surrounding area is part of the town. Those murdered had been marched there to store as the trains could go no further. The prisoners could have been locked in and left there. Many would have died anyway from the overcrowding, but not as horribly as they did. It was the people of the town who were called upon to bury the victums, and without skipping any of the proprieties. Those involved in the killings were the hitler youth unit *of* the town, some traineed for the Luftwalf, and the local Nazi commander. But these were all people of the town. They certainly smelled it and saw it and I'll bet not a one did a thing. The war was almost over for them and they knew American troops were almost there. There was no reason to murder over a thousand people.
Nitpicking details is in no way going to lessen the offense or the responsibility. Nor is it like being within 'smell' distance of a camp for years and learning to pretend. This happened as the war was ending for that little hunk of Germany, and if they were simply detaining their prisoners just keeping the door locked would have been sufficent.
They wanted to get rid of them lest the soldiers discovered more evidence of the genocide.
The grain barn was on the outskirts of town, but it was a rural town. The surrounding area is part of the town. Those murdered had been marched there to store as the trains could go no further. The prisoners could have been locked in and left there. Many would have died anyway from the overcrowding, but not as horribly as they did. It was the people of the town who were called upon to bury the victums, and without skipping any of the proprieties.
Yes, they were ordered to do so by U.S. forces.
Those involved in the killings were the hitler youth unit *of* the town, some traineed for the Luftwalf, and the local Nazi commander. But these were all people of the town. They certainly smelled it and saw it and I'll bet not a one did a thing. The war was almost over for them and they knew American troops were almost there. There was no reason to murder over a thousand people.
No, they were the SS of Moscow.... of course they were the SS unit of that town.
And the last sentence.. you don't know much about WW2, do you ? So you are really surprised the SS and Nazis killed people?
Nitpicking details is in no way going to lessen the offense or the responsibility. Nor is it like being within 'smell' distance of a camp for years and learning to pretend. This happened as the war was ending for that little hunk of Germany, and if they were simply detaining their prisoners just keeping the door locked would have been sufficent.
Of course it does make a difference if you burn people in some remote barn outside of the town or on the town's market square. Especially when it's 1945 and barely anybody has a car or phone etc. You can't blame a whole town for something the SS and whoever else did.
And, again, please stop being surprised the SS and Nazis killed people. What happened there is not a surprise unless you know absolute nothing about WW2. I suppose you're ESL.. that might be explaining this.
I don't think this statement is true at all. Just look at the T4 and nobody knew about this, even after the church got wind of it. But doing nothing is that the church does best anyway.
I just read up on this and those were Nazis such as SS and so on, and it was not in that town but north of it. So, saying "citizens of Gardelegen" is wrong, because that's referring to the general population.
So, what do you suppose they thought that smell was?
And I have no idea what "T4" means and the reference to a church.
On the particular topic of Auschwitz it was within the range of Allied bombers by late 1944. The link I posted earlier goes into details about the types of planes available that could reach the camp and the possible impact of the bombing. Even if the crematoria had been properly identified and known to be an extermintation site (something that wasn't proven in the reconaissance photos until the 1970's) the only bombers that could have reached the camp in regular fashion would have been high altitude heavy bombers. The issue with them, as stated earlier, is that they were incredibly inaccurate. The link I provided debunks some of the other theories about what else could have been done.
The liberation was certainly a harrowing experience for those involved. Outside of the many excellent books on the topic, there was one episode of the series "Band of Brothers" that dealt with the liberation of a camp and was done in a fantastic and factual manner. The series is pretty easy to get and that one episode is very moving and captures the experiences of the soldiers entering the camps very well.
On the topic of the camps themselves, I think people get this image of just one large installation where these things took place. In reality, many of the camps were large complexes and had multiple satellite locations that kept the workers divided up. Many times the death camp may have simply been one remote camp while the prisoners were held in dozens of satellite camps throughout the area. Someone could have been at or lived near "Auschwitz", but they may have been 20+ miles from the actual extermination camp. Regardless it is beyond logic that the local Germans didn't know something was going on at these camps. They certainly knew there were large prisoner camps and many of them experienced the smells of the camps. They also knew that these weren't just for political prisoners, but Jews and other "undesirables" as well. The Nazi's created a careful campaign of media de-sensitizing to what was going on in the camps. It is reasonable that some people didn't know the true scale of what was happening, but those that lived nearest the camps certainly knew (there are plenty of reports of crematoria ash falling on towns) and the sheer number of people involved in the camps meant that word would leak out.
It's an incredible leap to think that the average German didn't know that something was going on in these camps. I think people turned a blind eye for the most part either through apathy or a feeling of being powerless.
It's an incredible leap to think that the average German didn't know that something was going on in these camps. I think people turned a blind eye for the most part either through apathy or a feeling of being powerless.
I agree, to protest would just land you in hot water.
However, I think there were a number of german citizens that had no problem with what was going on.
I know it's politically correct though to just villanize the Nazi's and give the typical german a pass. However, there have been similar attrocities all over Europe in prior centuries, just not on such a large and efficient scale.
Recall that during the black plauge there were tens of thousands of jews gathered up by mobs.
Dresden burned over 1000 jews one night throwing them onto bonfires.....ironic considering what happens to Dresden many centuries later.
I agree, to protest would just land you in hot water.
However, I think there were a number of german citizens that had no problem with what was going on.
I know it's politically correct though to just villanize the Nazi's and give the typical german a pass. However, there have been similar attrocities all over Europe in prior centuries, just not on such a large and efficient scale.
Recall that during the black plauge there were tens of thousands of jews gathered up by mobs.
Dresden burned over 1000 jews one night throwing them onto bonfires.....ironic considering what happens to Dresden many centuries later.
The link I posted was about a book that delves into this exact topic in minute detail. The takeaway from the book is that Hitler and the Nazi's tapped into an existing current of anti-semitism within Germany. Persecuting Jews was not something that the average German really cared about. The book highlights the movement from this existing anti-semitism and people not caring/distrusting/hating Jews to getting the population prepped for what became mass deportation and extermination. They do a good job highlighting Nazi regime media in proudly proclaiming the deaths or imprisonment of Jews, first in small doses and then larger and larger numbers of people. They then provided the average German with propaganda showing these camps as being Jewish utopia's. So, people who may not have cared about the persecution but, may have possibly resisted the idea of extermination were assuaged.
Even among the historical community it has become standard practice to think of the German people as being blind to what was going on. However, I think the evidence points more to a general attitude that the people didn't really care and were more or less silent supporters of what was happening.
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