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Old 08-20-2012, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,539 posts, read 21,178,088 times
Reputation: 16936

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
On the particular topic of Auschwitz it was within the range of Allied bombers by late 1944. The link I posted earlier goes into details about the types of planes available that could reach the camp and the possible impact of the bombing. Even if the crematoria had been properly identified and known to be an extermintation site (something that wasn't proven in the reconaissance photos until the 1970's) the only bombers that could have reached the camp in regular fashion would have been high altitude heavy bombers. The issue with them, as stated earlier, is that they were incredibly inaccurate. The link I provided debunks some of the other theories about what else could have been done.

The liberation was certainly a harrowing experience for those involved. Outside of the many excellent books on the topic, there was one episode of the series "Band of Brothers" that dealt with the liberation of a camp and was done in a fantastic and factual manner. The series is pretty easy to get and that one episode is very moving and captures the experiences of the soldiers entering the camps very well.

On the topic of the camps themselves, I think people get this image of just one large installation where these things took place. In reality, many of the camps were large complexes and had multiple satellite locations that kept the workers divided up. Many times the death camp may have simply been one remote camp while the prisoners were held in dozens of satellite camps throughout the area. Someone could have been at or lived near "Auschwitz", but they may have been 20+ miles from the actual extermination camp. Regardless it is beyond logic that the local Germans didn't know something was going on at these camps. They certainly knew there were large prisoner camps and many of them experienced the smells of the camps. They also knew that these weren't just for political prisoners, but Jews and other "undesirables" as well. The Nazi's created a careful campaign of media de-sensitizing to what was going on in the camps. It is reasonable that some people didn't know the true scale of what was happening, but those that lived nearest the camps certainly knew (there are plenty of reports of crematoria ash falling on towns) and the sheer number of people involved in the camps meant that word would leak out.

Germans knew of Holocaust horror about death camps | UK news | The Guardian

It's an incredible leap to think that the average German didn't know that something was going on in these camps. I think people turned a blind eye for the most part either through apathy or a feeling of being powerless.
One woman told of how she had noticed that all their Jewish neighbors were dissapearing. She had known some of them as friends. She had expected them to write but none did. She and her friends were standing in a food line, and she said she was worried that something had happened to them, that she wondered if anyone knew.

She was probably the exception, but her friends looked shocked and told her to hush immediately, that people could be listening and she could dissapear too. This was with a bunch of interviews about the power of the police state that was created, the gestapo especially, which dealt largely with its own citizens and were without any limits. Germans suspected of harboring the wrong thoughts could and would be arrested and tortured. There were reports of older ladies who were just 'odd' who where turned in since they didn't display the right level of enthusiam. If the neighbors noticed it was a lesson. They were also encouraged, as did the KBG, to turn in anyone breaking the law, listening to illegal raido reports, expressing the wrong thoughts. They even refined the execution method of the guitionne where it could handle volumes in its own industralized processing system for disloyal Germans. Their headless bodies were used for medical training. The Germans willing to speak out and those who couldn't hide their feelings were winnowed out on a continuing basis.

This doesn't explain the Germans who could smell the stick, or had ash falling on them, or close to the satalite camps like Buchanwald which was spread over a large area and saw stripped raggedly dressed skelitans marched past them. And in places where the signs were not there, I'm sure some would have acted even with the risk (and there were those who did) if they knew what to do, and some were *privately* opposed. But I wonder if the whole "We didn't know" was in part fed by the way they did, even if it was how the people who vanished were never heard of again like this woman who knew *something* bad was going on, and the knowledge that one slip and the gestapo could come to your door, and the psychological retreat of convincing themselves that they didn't because it was safer that way.

Last edited by nightbird47; 08-20-2012 at 04:36 PM..
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:38 AM
 
56 posts, read 124,656 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaseMan View Post
This was brought up in the thread about the atomic bombings, but was off topic, so let's discuss this here.

Did America and the allies just disregard the plight of the Jews in Europe, or was this just never a practical option? Of course, the question disregards that Auschwitz was just one of many concentration camps scattered throughout Europe.
The powerful are not bothered by things like concentration camps and genocide.
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,567 posts, read 12,772,385 times
Reputation: 9398
Ask why America and others don't protest about the killing of Coptic Christians in Egypt? They simply find no profit in it...American will not involve themselves in any enterprise that they do not benefit from..It's just the way it is..If each Jew back then was a barrel of oil being diverted away from American profiteers...The holocaust would not have been as intense...Why were Jews turned away prior the holocaust by the boat full from AMERICAN AND CANADIAN shores? Stupid Christians at that time had this notion that "The Jews killed Christ"...when in fact it was the Romans who had full control of the execution of the founder of the Christian movement...Maybe if they were bright they would have turned away Italian immigrants after the great war?
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:44 AM
 
14,984 posts, read 23,779,688 times
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..and with that, this thread just "jumped the shark"....
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:44 AM
 
2,729 posts, read 5,346,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
Ask why America and others don't protest about the killing of Coptic Christians in Egypt? They simply find no profit in it...American will not involve themselves in any enterprise that they do not benefit from..It's just the way it is..If each Jew back then was a barrel of oil being diverted away from American profiteers...The holocaust would not have been as intense...Why were Jews turned away prior the holocaust by the boat full from AMERICAN AND CANADIAN shores? Stupid Christians at that time had this notion that "The Jews killed Christ"...when in fact it was the Romans who had full control of the execution of the founder of the Christian movement...Maybe if they were bright they would have turned away Italian immigrants after the great war?
...and Canadians DO involve themselves in things that do not profit them personally? Take your hateful rant elsewhere.
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:48 AM
 
14,984 posts, read 23,779,688 times
Reputation: 26473
Note to mods - can we please implement some filter, so that those that post 75% of more in the politics forum, are locked out of this forum?
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Old 08-21-2012, 09:12 AM
 
2,729 posts, read 5,346,678 times
Reputation: 1785
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
One woman told of how she had noticed that all their Jewish neighbors were dissapearing. She had known some of them as friends. She had expected them to write but none did. She and her friends were standing in a food line, and she said she was worried that something had happened to them, that she wondered if anyone knew.

She was probably the exception, but her friends looked shocked and told her to hush immediately, that people could be listening and she could dissapear too. This was with a bunch of interviews about the power of the police state that was created, the gestapo especially, which dealt largely with its own citizens and were without any limits. Germans suspected of harboring the wrong thoughts could and would be arrested and tortured. There were reports of older ladies who were just 'odd' who where turned in since they didn't display the right level of enthusiam. If the neighbors noticed it was a lesson. They were also encouraged, as did the KBG, to turn in anyone breaking the law, listening to illegal raido reports, expressing the wrong thoughts. They even refined the execution method of the guitionne where it could handle volumes in its own industralized processing system for disloyal Germans. Their headless bodies were used for medical training. The Germans willing to speak out and those who couldn't hide their feelings were winnowed out on a continuing basis.

This doesn't explain the Germans who could smell the stick, or had ash falling on them, or close to the satalite camps like Buchanwald which was spread over a large area and saw stripped raggedly dressed skelitans marched past them. And in places where the signs were not there, I'm sure some would have acted even with the risk (and there were those who did) if they knew what to do, and some were *privately* opposed. But I wonder if the whole "We didn't know" was in part fed by the way they did, even if it was how the people who vanished were never heard of again like this woman who knew *something* bad was going on, and the knowledge that one slip and the gestapo could come to your door, and the psychological retreat of convincing themselves that they didn't because it was safer that way.
Honestly, I think this falls under the same category as, "How did they ever let Hitler come to power?" Having never been in that situation, individually nor as a nation, we cannot fathom why the Germans did what they did. It's beyond reason.

Sadly, though we'd like to think we're above that, and that it could never happen again, we're probably a bit deluded.
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