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Old 09-04-2012, 01:15 AM
 
Location: Texas
1,769 posts, read 2,114,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post

Wanna say that Catherine identified Jews by DNA testing?

In Catherine's day, it was ringlets... not spiral DNA


.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:50 PM
 
18,360 posts, read 15,406,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
Why don't you just admit that antisemitism existed in ancient Egypt, Greece and pre-Christian Rome so we can put to rest the theory that antisemitism was created by followers of certain Jewish carpenter?
It was not created by "followers of certain Jewish carpenter," however these followers definitely played a role in European anti-semitism, that preceded Holocaust.
The thing is, if you look into Bible - not just New Testament, ( which is a "Christianity" part,) but the Old Testament, which is pre-history of Christianity, the story starts from the very beginnings of humankind, so Egyptians, Greeks, Assyrians, with all their multiple gods - they are all there as the branches of "tree of life," and Jews are nothing but one of the branches of that tree as well. So when things go wrong ( i.e. third of angels leaves god with Satan, and according to bible god doesn't trust any longer "even angels - his servants," not to mention humans, in order to turn things around, he is choosing Abraham ( who is not a Jew yet, according to modern definition, becasue there was no yet separation between arabs and jews; Abraham at this point is the common forebearer of both of them,) and proceeds with his plan. Since this plan of acknowledgement of one God, one Creator, ( instead of the whole array of them, as it probably used to be before that departure with Satan,) is unfolding in the hostile environment, when humans are hanging on to their accustomed ways, the Jews who are brought here and there to live among different nations, while bound by their initial covenant with God, are not looked upon favorably by anyone, and that's how it supposed to be, because the reason why they end up without their own land at the first place, is their disobedience to God. So it becomes a double-edge sword; sometimes they are not liked by the host nations because God gives them preference comparably to others, and sometimes God punishes them with the hand of other nations because of their disobedience. In both cases they end up being not liked by the host nations. And this is already BEFORE Christianity. When Christianity comes into place, it makes matters even worse for Jews, because now the list of all wrongdoings of Jews is complete with crusification of Christ, where the new wave of people ( i.e. Christians) can point their fingure at them and accuse them in whatever they find suitable, because jews are still without their own land, living among other nations and they are still an easy target for hatred.
That is not to say that the whole idea of Christianity is the hatred of Jews - but hatred towards Jews happened to be a by-product of Christianity; intentionally on God's part or not - it's another question.


Quote:
You are just to funny Erasure. You find these tidbits on the internet and build your theories based on them.

Hitler courted Muslims whrn he needed them, the same way he courted Stalin before.
Nazi ideology was very spiritual with references to German mythology and then the myth of Aryans. In no way Nazis incorporated any elements of Islam in their ideology. Nazis rejected all religion. I don't think anybody sane would call Hitler a religious man
What theories?
I've never said that Nazis incorporated any elements of Islam in their ideology - that's your own phantasy. What I've said was that Hitler acknowledged that Islam was more fitting for his purpose than Christianity. However - alas - he had to operate in historically Christian culture, which with its "Prince of Peace" as a central figure didn't do him any good. Being a spiritual man, he had to give it all a consideration, and to try to "tweak" Christianity for his needs, since he was making references to God on numerous occasions. And since even that was not good enough, his propaganda department was turning to old German legends, which were essentially Norse sagas from pagan times.
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Old 09-04-2012, 07:54 PM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,479,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
It was not created by "followers of certain Jewish carpenter," however these followers definitely played a role in European anti-semitism, that preceded Holocaust.
The thing is, if you look into Bible - not just New Testament, ( which is a "Christianity" part,) but the Old Testament, which is pre-history of Christianity, the story starts from the very beginnings of humankind, so Egyptians, Greeks, Assyrians, with all their multiple gods - they are all there as the branches of "tree of life," and Jews are nothing but one of the branches of that tree as well. So when things go wrong ( i.e. third of angels leaves god with Satan, and according to bible god doesn't trust any longer "even angels - his servants," not to mention humans, in order to turn things around, he is choosing Abraham ( who is not a Jew yet, according to modern definition, becasue there was no yet separation between arabs and jews; Abraham at this point is the common forebearer of both of them,) and proceeds with his plan. Since this plan of acknowledgement of one God, one Creator, ( instead of the whole array of them, as it probably used to be before that departure with Satan,) is unfolding in the hostile environment, when humans are hanging on to their accustomed ways, the Jews who are brought here and there to live among different nations, while bound by their initial covenant with God, are not looked upon favorably by anyone, and that's how it supposed to be, because the reason why they end up without their own land at the first place, is their disobedience to God. So it becomes a double-edge sword; sometimes they are not liked by the host nations because God gives them preference comparably to others, and sometimes God punishes them with the hand of other nations because of their disobedience. In both cases they end up being not liked by the host nations. And this is already BEFORE Christianity. When Christianity comes into place, it makes matters even worse for Jews, because now the list of all wrongdoings of Jews is complete with crusification of Christ, where the new wave of people ( i.e. Christians) can point their fingure at them and accuse them in whatever they find suitable, because jews are still without their own land, living among other nations and they are still an easy target for hatred.
That is not to say that the whole idea of Christianity is the hatred of Jews - but hatred towards Jews happened to be a by-product of Christianity; intentionally on God's part or not - it's another question.
How is antisemitism a by-product of Christianity if it is much older and was present in ancient Greece and Rome? If anything Christianity inherited anti-semitism from the Romans who enacted specific laws aimed at Jews and can be considered anti-semitic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
What theories?
I've never said that Nazis incorporated any elements of Islam in their ideology - that's your own phantasy. What I've said was that Hitler acknowledged that Islam was more fitting for his purpose than Christianity.
Yes, according to Speer Hitler said this:

"You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"

He simply complained that Christianity with its compassion and Christian ethics is no good as a religion for his German Race of Masters. True. I agree with Hilter here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
However - alas - he had to operate in historically Christian culture, which with its "Prince of Peace" as a central figure didn't do him any good. Being a spiritual man, he had to give it all a consideration, and to try to "tweak" Christianity for his needs, since he was making references to God on numerous occasions. And since even that was not good enough, his propaganda department was turning to old German legends, which were essentially Norse sagas from pagan times.
Not just propaganda and not just Norse sagas. NSDAP has its roots in Thule Society and from swastika to the SS's Germanic runes and Aryan racial purity, Nazi idelogy is full of pagan misticism bordering a religion.
Take a look at the rest of this wiki article:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relig...al_religion.3F
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:00 PM
 
18,360 posts, read 15,406,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
How is antisemitism a by-product of Christianity if it is much older and was present in ancient Greece and Rome? If anything Christianity inherited anti-semitism from the Romans who enacted specific laws aimed at Jews and can be considered anti-semitic.
Learn how to read please, instead of incessantly pushing your agenda.
I've already gave you explanations earlier. Just ask yourself how Jewish diaspora came in place, and how Jews ended up under Romans to begin with.
You'll get your answer.
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:53 PM
 
31,371 posts, read 33,526,165 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Learn how to read please, instead of incessantly pushing your agenda.
If anyone is pushing an agenda!

Frankly I don't even know where to begin so let me cut your post down to its lowest common denominator which is in fact pretty fracking low.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
the reason why they end up without their own land at the first place, is their disobedience to God. So it becomes a double-edge sword; sometimes they are not liked by the host nations because God gives them preference comparably to others, and sometimes God punishes them with the hand of other nations because of their disobedience.
As others on other threads that have been invaded by evangelical Christian mumbo-jumbo, this is the history forum. Please redirect your Christian mythology in the direction of the appropriate forum, cause this ain't it.

The Holocaust was god's punishment for Jewish disobedience... you can't find that kind of bull**** outside of one of those rattlesnake infested speaking in tongue gathering of people suffering from group psychosis.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:28 PM
 
18,360 posts, read 15,406,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
If anyone is pushing an agenda!

Frankly I don't even know where to begin so let me cut your post down to its lowest common denominator which is in fact pretty fracking low.



As others on other threads that have been invaded by evangelical Christian mumbo-jumbo, this is the history forum. Please redirect your Christian mythology in the direction of the appropriate forum, cause this ain't it.

The Holocaust was god's punishment for Jewish disobedience... you can't find that kind of bull**** outside of one of those rattlesnake infested speaking in tongue gathering of people suffering from group psychosis.
I don't have any particular agenda.
I've only explained why ( from my point of view of course) anti-antisemitism in Europe is a by-product of Christianity and by-product of Koran in Islamic countries, while the Old Testament testifies about the events.
People who consider themselves Christian and point their finger at Jews however, do not see the deeper and broader meaning of the bible, and warning for those who choose to hate them. Still, everyone is free to make their personal choices; it's a part of a deal, I suppose. So far you can eradicate neither hate, nor greed, nor envy in people, as much as you can't deprive the humanity of its positive traits.
Everyone is choosing one's own path and one's own beliefs. The attitude towards Jews is one of them.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:38 PM
 
31,371 posts, read 33,526,165 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I don't have any particular agenda.
An apology with a caveat.

If I misread your post, I'm sorry but I reserve the right to re-read it tomorrow.
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:03 PM
 
18,360 posts, read 15,406,718 times
Reputation: 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
An apology with a caveat.

If I misread your post, I'm sorry but I reserve the right to re-read it tomorrow.
Oh sure, why not...
( I am really, really struggling with English tonight, so I hope it will be still readable for you tomorrow)
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Old 09-05-2012, 12:14 AM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,479,446 times
Reputation: 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Learn how to read please, instead of incessantly pushing your agenda.
I've already gave you explanations earlier. Just ask yourself how Jewish diaspora came in place, and how Jews ended up under Romans to begin with.
You'll get your answer.
Simple question: is antisemitism a product of Christianity or not?
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:16 PM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
16,697 posts, read 19,469,733 times
Reputation: 34555
There was a huge movement in Germany in the early decades of the 20th century to revive aspects of pre-Christian Germanic spirituality. Hitler, apparently, thought those people were fools, but he was willing to refashion any tool in his Nationalist tool-box to his own ends.

Despite the wealth of pre-Christian symbols he twisted, Hitler's philosophy was instructed more by quasi Roman imperial values and a psuedo-scientific racial theory, not heathen Germanic values. The foundational myths of the Germanic lore are all about unrelated tribes and even species (giants and proto-humans) intermarrying and mating. Not exactly the fount for a racial-isolationist philosophy.

I don't think that Hitler has a religious bone in his body, Christian, Islamic, Pagan, or otherwise.
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