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Old 08-30-2012, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
16,498 posts, read 21,834,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torquemation View Post
Americans corporations

IBM, FORD, General Motors, etc.. also Hollywood who were ardent Holocaust deniers and anybody that attacked Hitler (like Chaplin) was accused of being a communist and expelled from the country.
Let us not forget Prescott Bush who helped forge the deal with Thyssen Krupp to bring Hitler to power.
I understan the Nazis even charged Slovakia and others to house their Jews in the concentration camps.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:12 AM
 
9,965 posts, read 15,438,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Three questions.

First, I think I read somewhere that Facist Italy (Mussolini) at first refused to give the Jews over to the Nazis. They later caved in, presumably as Italy began to weaken. Does anybody know if this is true?

Second, I have never read anything about what happened to the Jews in neutral Spain and Portugal. The Jewish populations were probably not that high in these countries but I am still wondering what the attitudes of their governments were --- especially Franco in Spain.

Third, what happened to the Jews in Finland? German ally in WW2 but stil independent.
I read that the Spanish allowed a small number of Jewish refugees into Spain mostly for transit into Portugal. The Spanish attitude towards the Jews was fairly ambivalent--there was no real large feeling of anti-semitism, mainly because there hadn't been very many Jews in Spain for over 400 years. The Spanish expelled pretty much the entire Jewish population during the Inquisition.

The Finns probably only had about a thousand Jews in the country, so like some other nations with small populations like Albania--they were able to protect them .

Last edited by Deezus; 08-30-2012 at 10:38 AM..
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:27 AM
Status: "October child." (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
20,374 posts, read 25,508,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deezus View Post
I think that's a BS statement. I don't think that the Poles were any more especially complict in the extermination of the Jewish population than other Nazi-occupied nations like the Netherlands or France or Germany's allies like Hungary. And it's not accurate to say that the Polish people specifically sent Jews to the death camps. The Germans established huge Jewish ghettos in Poland early in the occupation--later they made the decision to transport Jews from Poland and other nations to the camps. There were never any Polish guards at any of the death camps--it wasn't the Poles sending them to the camps. The area around Auschwitz was devoid of Polish citizens who had been forcibly relocated from the surrounding villages.

Unlike a lot of other Nazi-occupied nations, there was never any official colloborationist government with the Germans--in fact the Polish government-in-exile never officially surrended.The Polish Resistance was one of the strongest partisan forces in Europe against the Nazis, furthermore Poland was the only nation in occupied Europe where a resistance organization existed to help rescue it's Jewish citizens. In fact if it wasn't for the Polish Resistance's intel, the Allies wouldn't have had information that Auschwitz even existed. As well as the fact that some members of the Polish Catholic members of the Resistance fought alongside the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

Żegota - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Polish resistance movement in World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The price for hiding or aiding a Jew in occupied Poland was death to you and your entire family--and many Poles were killed for this. In fact after the state of Israel was created the most people awarded the medals of the "Righteous Among the Nations"--for those Gentiles who assisted the Jews during the Holocaust--were Poles. And many of these were themselves murdered killed by the Nazis. Even many Catholic clergy members(who themselves were a target of the Nazis) helped out and tried to hide Polish Jews.

Polish Righteous among the Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There was anti-Semitism in Poland to some degree--just as there was in most countries in Europe at the time and it was bad to some degree in the 1930s. There were acts of violence or betrayal by some Poles against the Jews, especially in Eastern Poland. But to paint the whole nation with one broad brush that they somehow were the most responsible for the Holocaust is a misnomer. The Poles were the first nation to stand up to the Nazis and unlike some other nations, we never stopped fighting.

And I've been to some of the camps in Europe--there were plenty of Polish Catholic names in those books as well. The Poles as a whole were murdered at a higher rate by the Nazis than any other occupied nation outside of the Ukraine and Russia. There was no cozy co-existance with the Nazis like "ze French". Many of my Polish ancestors perished fighting the Nazis(and the goddamn Russians) long before the US could be motivated to get off their ass or had any interest in the fate of the Western Europe.


This is all accurate. The Poles also paid a higher price for assisting Jews - death - than any other nationality.

And yet, so many did just that!

Irina Sendler is one shining example of this. She was a Polish Christian Social Worker and daughter of a doctor who smuggled children and others out of the Warsaw Ghetto. For this she was tortured and beaten and left for dead. Remarkably, she is still alive and in living in the US.

The amount of Poles who assisted Jews is higher than any other country, despite the harsher penalties imposed upon compassionate Poles. And there were many.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:46 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,480 posts, read 10,680,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deezus View Post
I read that the Spanish allowed a small number of Jewish refugees into Spain mostly for transit into Portugal. The Spanish attitude towards the Jews was fairly ambivalent--there was no real large feeling of anti-semitism, mainly because there hadn't been many Jews in Spain for over 400 years. The Spanish expelled pretty much the entire Jewish population during the Inquisition.

The Finns probably only had about a thousand Jews in the country, so like some other nations with small populations like Albania--they were able to protect them .
This would mean that at least Finland, Spain and Portugal "protected" their small Jewish populations. Which is kind of suprising because Finalnd was a actual German ally and Spain was neutral but a pro-Axis dictatorship. I am guessing Portugal was similiar to Spain.

Albania is another country you never hear about regarding the Holocaust. Since it was conquered by Italy, maybe the Italian authorities plus the local Albanians might have at first protected the Jews. Plus, as you suggested the small Jewish population may have kept Albania under the Nazi radar screen.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:51 AM
 
13,731 posts, read 19,880,468 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
This is all accurate. The Poles also paid a higher price for assisting Jews - death - than any other nationality.

And yet, so many did just that!

Irina Sendler is one shining example of this. She was a Polish Christian Social Worker and daughter of a doctor who smuggled children and others out of the Warsaw Ghetto. For this she was tortured and beaten and left for dead. Remarkably, she is still alive and in living in the US.

The amount of Poles who assisted Jews is higher than any other country, despite the harsher penalties imposed upon compassionate Poles. And there were many.
The thing people have to remember about the holocaust and Poland - is that the Slavic/Polish population was only slightly less important to remove from the world then Jews. The only reason anyone in Poland survived the war was that the Nazi's didn't have enough time to put them all into their gas chambers before the war ended. Nevertheless, Poland was occupied for 6 years and was almost completely depopulated of it's jewish population - more than 3 million, but at the same time Nazi's found time to put about 2.5 million non-jewish Poles to death. Germany murdered 15% of Poland's total civilian population during the war - both jew and non-jew.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:53 AM
 
Location: DFW
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Japan (with the Jews living in East Asia.)
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:04 AM
 
9,965 posts, read 15,438,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
This would mean that at least Finland, Spain and Portugal "protected" their small Jewish populations. Which is kind of suprising because Finalnd was a actual German ally and Spain was neutral but a pro-Axis dictatorship. I am guessing Portugal was similiar to Spain.

Albania is another country you never hear about regarding the Holocaust. Since it was conquered by Italy, maybe the Italian authorities plus the local Albanians might have at first protected the Jews. Plus, as you suggested the small Jewish population may have kept Albania under the Nazi radar screen.
I believe Albania was the only European country to acutally end up with more Jews at the end of World War II than they started with. Both Albanian Muslims and Christians hid Jews from neighboring Balkan nations and protected them from the Germans. They actually had over a couple thousand more Jews when the war was over. I recently saw a documentary about a descendent of one of those Muslim familes who travelled back to Israel years later. Interesting story of the period that you don't hear much about.

The story of Spain and the Jews is somewhat interesting as well. I think that some Spanish diplomats actually went out of their way to give assistance to some Jewish refugees, which as I pointed out was interesting considering the history of the Jews in Spain. As long as they didn't go too far in angering the Germans(who just saw the Spanish as fellow fascists) they managed to sort of get away with it. On the other hand there's other reports that claim that Franco handed over a list of all Jews living in Spain to the Germans.

Where nations had a couple thousand Jews in their population however--it was easier to avoid German demands to deport them or provide a list of names of Jewish citizens. Whereas in European cities with large Jewish ghettos--there was obviously no way to hide them all. In Poland and the Baltics and the Ukraine you had cities that were 25%-50% Jewish like Lwow.

Last edited by Deezus; 08-30-2012 at 11:17 AM..
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Old 08-30-2012, 01:04 PM
 
Location: A Place With REAL People
2,837 posts, read 5,614,605 times
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Even the U.S. in their own way were compliant in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jewish people trying to come to American fleeing on large ships. Our so called beloved President Roosevelt saw to it that many a ship trying to flee Germany and make it to safety here in the U.S. were turned back and they met their fate when returning. Great Britain would not accept them either. If more knew the truth about Roosevelt and his dealings he would not be so well thought of. He single handedly saw to it that the early warnings days in advance of the attack on Pearl Harbor were ignored as he wanted us IN that war with Japan, and this saw to it. When I think about it I get sick that he literally sacrificed so many lives for his OWN agenda. Presidents before and since have done the very same thing. And we sheeple just go along with it.
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Old 08-30-2012, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Dublin, CA
3,811 posts, read 3,835,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deezus View Post
I think that's a BS statement. I don't think that the Poles were any more especially complict in the extermination of the Jewish population than other Nazi-occupied nations like the Netherlands or France or Germany's allies like Hungary. And it's not accurate to say that the Polish people specifically sent Jews to the death camps. The Germans established huge Jewish ghettos in Poland early in the occupation--later they made the decision to transport Jews from Poland and other nations to the camps. There were never any Polish guards at any of the death camps--it wasn't the Poles sending them to the camps. The area around Auschwitz was devoid of Polish citizens who had been forcibly relocated from the surrounding villages.

Unlike a lot of other Nazi-occupied nations, there was never any official colloborationist government with the Germans--in fact the Polish government-in-exile never officially surrended.The Polish Resistance was one of the strongest partisan forces in Europe against the Nazis, furthermore Poland was the only nation in occupied Europe where a resistance organization existed to help rescue it's Jewish citizens. In fact if it wasn't for the Polish Resistance's intel, the Allies wouldn't have had information that Auschwitz even existed. As well as the fact that the Polish Catholic members of the Resistance fought alongside Polish Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

Żegota - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Polish resistance movement in World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The price for hiding or aiding a Jew in occupied Poland was death to you and your entire family--and many Poles were killed for this. In fact after the state of Israel was created the most people awarded the medals of the "Righteous Among the Nations"--for those Gentiles who assisted the Jews during the Holocaust--were Poles. And many of these were themselves murdered killed by the Nazis. Even many Catholic clergy members(who themselves were a target of the Nazis) helped out and tried to hide Polish Jews.

Polish Righteous among the Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There was anti-Semitism in Poland to some degree--just as there was in most countries in Europe at the time and it was bad to some degree in the 1930s. There were acts of violence or betrayal by some Poles against the Jews, especially in Eastern Poland. But to paint the whole nation with one broad brush that they somehow were the most responsible for the Holocaust is a misnomer. The Poles were the first nation to stand up to the Nazis and unlike some other nations, we never stopped fighting.

And I've been to some of the camps in Europe--there were plenty of Polish Catholic names in those books as well. The Poles as a whole were murdered at a higher rate by the Nazis than any other occupied nation outside of the Ukraine and Russia. There was no cozy co-existance with the Nazis like "ze French". Many of my Polish ancestors perished fighting the Nazis(and the goddamn Russians) long before the US could be motivated to get off their ass or had any interest in the fate of the Western Europe.
I shall disagree with your assessment. Although certain points are accurate, others are not. Not too mention, it boils down to the definition of "assist." Now, if you are saying groups of Polish persons went around and rounded up Jews and turned them over to the Germans? No. It was not widespread, however it did occur. The germans offered money to anyone who turned over Jews.

However, since Poland, during WWII had the largest concentration of Jews, in Europe (hence why most of the death camps were in Poland, along with other reasons) it stands to reason, the VAST majority of Polish persons gave tacit approval to the Germans. They "looked the other way." Yes, there are all sorts of cases of Polish persons assisting Jews and being killed for it. No question. However, many more "looked the other way," when the major roundups, etc were going on.

I know, "What were they going to do?" Fight. Many did. If many more stood up, many of the killings would not have occurred. In the beginning, during the T4 killings of "undesirables," in Germany, the population did, in fact, stand up against Hitler. The killings slowed down (not halted), but also went underground.

Another thing, in regards to the Polish People: When the war was over, and MANY Polish Jews returned home, they were turned away by the Polish Government and the Polish people. Homes which belonged to Polish Jews were occuppied by Poles and they refused to turn them over. The Polish Government almost ALWAYS sided with the Polish people, not the Polish Jews. There are many cases of Polish persons telling returning Jews, "Not enough of you were gassed."

The Polish People, as a whole, were just as guilty as the German Government. Many today admit this and feel a certain "shame" to their actions.
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Old 08-30-2012, 01:34 PM
 
31,371 posts, read 33,549,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
This is all accurate. The Poles also paid a higher price for assisting Jews - death - than any other nationality.
The death penalty was only applied to Poles? In total numbers, because other countries we must assume were exempted for such punishment?
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