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Old 08-30-2012, 09:34 PM
 
Location: The Ranch
23,343 posts, read 26,325,451 times
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To a large extent the Russians had their own agenda for the Jews. They were complicite in displacing the Jews of Europe and if the Nazis didn't turn on them, they would've been at the top of list. Even after the war they made it nearly impossible for the Jews on one hand to return to Eastern Europe and on the the hand made it possible for Israel to exist which included aiding in supplying weapons to them when the US embargoed them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Russia
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
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Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Not in the case of the U.S. whose denial of Jewish refugees was the result of the rampant anti-semitism in particular and anti-immigration policies.

http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/arc.../holocaust.pdf

Voyage of the St. Louis
quoting my words. "and in someways this makes their actions somewhat understanding"

I am aware of the sentiments, and didn't deny them. Yes, there was anti-semitism. Official policy was in part set with that in mind. But note the bold. At the point people were being refused, the expectation was not that it would lead to mass murder, thus my words are doubly modified. Nobody in modern memory had ever staged such a twisted and final plan as the nazi's did. In hindsight its quite plain. In the mentality of the time it wasn't. Was it a very bad decision? Yes. Did those who sent them away assume they'd die as many did? No. Would they have made a different decision with a time machine? We can't know.

The US was far from the only nation who carried that policy and the US cannot be singled out. The lack of response for its own citizens being caught was handled just as badly, but also in large part because it was assumed some solution would be eventually found. For most of those trapped eventually ran out.

I wasn't excusing anyone. Just saying that it can be understood, given the knowledge of the time, why they would have made the decisions made.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by NeilVA View Post


To a large extent the Russians had their own agenda for the Jews. They were complicite in displacing the Jews of Europe and if the Nazis didn't turn on them, they would've been at the top of list.

Stalin's chief henchman was a jew who starved and murdered millions of Christians and destroyed churches.

He was still honored long after Stalin was gone and lived to be a ripe old age... almost outliving the Soviet Union.


Lazar Kaganovich - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



.
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Old 08-31-2012, 12:19 AM
 
Location: The Ranch
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Originally Posted by king's highway View Post
Stalin's chief henchman was a jew who starved and murdered millions of Christians and destroyed churches.

He was still honored long after Stalin was gone and lived to be a ripe old age... almost outliving the Soviet Union.


.
He was born one. It doesn't mean he lived as one. kaganovich had Jewish parents, became an apostate and joined the bolsheviks. He oppressed Jews and violated Jewish law. Observant Jews actively fought the bolsheviks and the communists.

He was a butcher.


lazar moiseyevich kaganovich - YouTube

This thread is on nations and not to cherry pick individual people that happen to fit your agenda.
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Old 08-31-2012, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by NeilVA View Post



He was born one. It doesn't mean he lived as one. kaganovich had Jewish parents, became an apostate and joined the bolsheviks. He oppressed Jews and violated Jewish law. Observant Jews actively fought the bolsheviks and the communists.

He was a butcher.

This thread is on nations and not to cherry pick individual people that happen to fit your agenda.


I "cherry-picked" him because he was Stalin's chief henchman who murdered millions.

Your definition of "jew" is obviously quite different than mine.

Jews made up a big percentage of atheist bolsheviks.

As I said on my first post here... the White Russian diaspora were more anti-jew than Nazis.


Mod cut: Off topic.

.

Last edited by PJSaturn; 08-31-2012 at 10:26 PM..
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:04 AM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,481,040 times
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Originally Posted by NeilVA View Post

This thread is on nations and not to cherry pick individual people that happen to fit your agenda.
And do you believe you can accuse and condemn entire nations based on actions of some individuals????
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:35 AM
 
Location: The Ranch
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Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
And do you believe you can accuse and condemn entire nations based on actions of some individuals????

Then create a thread based on it.
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:56 AM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,481,040 times
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Originally Posted by NeilVA View Post
Then create a thread based on it.
You didn't answer my question.
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Old 08-31-2012, 12:25 PM
 
31,371 posts, read 33,548,314 times
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Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
And do you believe you can accuse and condemn entire nations based on actions of some individuals????
Like Yeahhhh!

We don't talk about the war against Tojo, we talk about the against Japan. We don't say the Korean war was fought against Kim Ill Sung and we certainly didn't call the war in Vietnam the War Against Uncle Ho!

Yes there was resistance within all the occupied countries and yes Italy and France in particular were reluctant to deport the Jews, but the fact remains their governments be that legitimate or not actively participated in those activities and the state apparatus of the occupied countries worked hand in hand with the Nazis. That is just a statement of fact.

It is much easier to cherry pick those who fought against the deportation than those that didn't.
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Old 08-31-2012, 01:12 PM
 
14,781 posts, read 38,035,207 times
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Originally Posted by king's highway View Post
I "cherry-picked" him because he was Stalin's chief henchman who murdered millions.

Your definition of "jew" is obviously quite different than mine.

Jews made up a big percentage of atheist bolsheviks.

As I said on my first post here... the White Russian diaspora were more anti-jew than Nazis.
The White Russians were very anti-Jewish, but the "idea" that Jews made up a large number of the Bolsheviks is a patent lie. This was started by the White Russians in 1917 and widely propagated since then by anti-Jewish organizations and governments. Indeed, the Nazi's via Alfred Rosenberg, borrowed their concept of "Jewish Bolshevism" from the White Russians. Of course, the actual reality was very different.

Jews were an oppressed class in Russia and when the Revolutions started they joined many different causes and groups, among them the Bolsheviks. One thing the Bolsheviks were good at was keeping records and taking census' of the party that included "ethnic affiliation". Being Jewish in this sense didn't mean you were a practicing Jew, just that you were "Jewish", which I'm guessing matches your definition.

Before the February Revolution in 1917 the Bolsheviks counted there numbers at around 10,000 people of which 364 (3.6%) were Jewish. By October of 1917 the amoung of Jews in the Bolshevik ranks had increased to 7.1% of the total. By 1922 there were 19,564 ethnic Jews in the party and they made up 5.2% of the total.

From 1923 to 1930 of the Narkom's on the Council of People's Commissar's, of the 23 members, 5 (21%) were ethnic Jews. Throughout the 1920's the Central Executive Committee composed of 400+ members had around 6% ethnic Jews.

So, overall we'll say that around 6% of the Bolshevik and later Communist party ranks were inhabited by ehtnic Jews from the Revolution through to 1936-1940 when most Jews were removed from the party in Stalin's purges. So, that means around 94% of Bolsheviks/Communists weren't Jewish ethnically or religiously.

You are repeating 100 year old anti-Jewish propaganda.

Mod cut: Orphaned; off topic.

Last edited by PJSaturn; 08-31-2012 at 10:29 PM..
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