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Old 08-31-2012, 09:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
To YOU it's an experiment, to THEM it's a way of life.
And?
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
And?
Just a statement.
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Old 09-01-2012, 05:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
the assimilated Jews often encounter the same hatred just for a fact that they are Jews, whether they believe that they are "chosen ones" or not.
But how did such hatred develop? Jews can't be hated based on ethnicity, because a Jew is not an ethnicity in any way.

Quote:
That was definitely a case in atheist SU, because plenty of Russians are anti-Semitic in their nature.
( Not all of course, but plenty)
If Russian anti-semitism is representative, than the reason Jews are hated (today it's not even remotely hatred, of course) is because they tended to become successful traders and speculators, often hurting many other traders and people - and even the State (lower taxes).

If memory serves me right, there should be no Jews in Russia, because they were all forced to leave (and more than once). Yet they are here... and tend to look like 100% Russians.

Quote:
It's not like Jewish bankers were better or worse than any other bankers of the world.
However when they were successful, the "goim" might have felt that being Jewish, they didn't deserve such grace in the eyes of the Lord and that was making them even more angry and envious.
That's probably the case. Just like for so many people today, "Arab" = terrorist.
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Old 09-01-2012, 10:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
But how did such hatred develop?
You will not understand it unless you'll look into the bible; the reasons behind Jews becoming a chosen nation, then failing to do what they were supposed to accomplish, then losing their land, being dispersed among the other nations while remaining a separate group and protecting their identity, and thus becoming an easy target of anyone's negative projections, the scapegoats of others misery. To put it in easy terms- in the eyes of some Christan believers the question "why are we having troubles, why are we deprived of God's grace" the answer was always "it's because of the Jews, their failing, their killing of Christ" and that was the original underlying motive for people's hatred, even when people have long forgotten about the source of it.

Quote:
Jews can't be hated based on ethnicity, because a Jew is not an ethnicity in any way.
Helllooo, this is a Russian speaking?
If Jews were not an "ethnicity," then why "Jew" was written in Soviet passports identifying the ethnic origin of Soviet citizens, along with "Kazakh," "Russian," "Chechen" and what's not?
And where did the Jewish Autonomous Region of Birobidzhan came from?

Birobidzhan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have no idea why the rumor that "Jews are not ethnicity" came in place.
WWII was sure an ultimate proof of the opposite, among other things.

Quote:
PS. If memory serves me right, there should be no Jews in Russia, because they were all forced to leave (and more than once). Yet they are here... and tend to look like 100% Russians.
They did, a lot of them, throughout history, when they've had a chance, on numerous occasions.
The last biggest exodus was in the nineties, so their numbers in Russia are nowhere what they used to be.

Last edited by erasure; 09-01-2012 at 11:37 AM..
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Old 09-01-2012, 12:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
in the eyes of some Christan believers
In Paganist Russia?

Quote:
If Jews were not an "ethnicity," then why "Jew" was written in Soviet passports identifying the ethnic origin of Soviet citizens, along with "Kazakh," "Russian," "Chechen" and what's not?
If some people identify themselves as Jews, it doesn't mean that they are ethnic Jews. Just look at their faces - they sure don't all look Middle Eastern

Quote:
I have no idea why the rumor that "Jews are not ethnicity" came in place.

The last biggest exodus was in the nineties, so their numbers in Russia are nowhere what they used to be.
Calling those people ethnic Jews is like calling you an ethnic American.

You didn't witness that exodus - I did. Those were Russians, who jumped at the opportunity to leave to the developed country - getting some papers to "prove" their heritage was a trivial task. Then they found out that the Holy Land is not exactly like in brochures --> massive increase in "Jewish" populations in US/EU

Israel is a melting pot - not unlike America. The only thing common among all Israelis is a passport.
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Old 09-01-2012, 01:28 PM
 
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[quote=rebel12;25897580]That's a thousand years ago although I am almost sure it was later than X century.[quote]

Fine make it the 8th century if you like...

Judaism 101: Yiddish Language and Culture

Quote:
What exactly did I make up? Jewish flirt with socialism? What are kibbutzes if not socialist experiments?
Your sentence construction implies that socialism was wide spread through European Jews, it was not. Socialism for Jews as for most in Europe was most prevalent amongst the intelligentsia and the industrial working classes. I don't think that it is much of an exaggeration that most "working class" European Jews were craftsmen working outside of industrial enterprises which spawned trade unionist and socialist.

As for the kibbutzes, yes they were "socialist" experiments in vain of other 19th Century agrarian utopians, so what? They still did represent majority political outlook of world Jewry.

Quote:
I know quite a few French Jews and they always say that French are stupid, they don't feel French at all.
Well there you have it! How can I refute the evidence of friends in 2012 when discussing attitudes in 1932. How foolish of me.

Quote:
What does it mean to be a Jew?
You are welcome to come to my house Rosh Hashanah and ask that question of my in-laws. I've been trying to get an answer to that question of 25 years, maybe you will have better luck.
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:57 PM
 
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[quote=ovcatto;25904071][quote=rebel12;25897580]That's a thousand years ago although I am almost sure it was later than X century.
Quote:

Fine make it the 8th century if you like...

Judaism 101: Yiddish Language and Culture
So as you can see Jews were a distinct group in Europe, with a distinctive language and culture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Your sentence construction implies that socialism was wide spread through European Jews, it was not.
No. It implies predominance of Jews in socialist movements in XIX century Europe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Well there you have it! How can I refute the evidence of friends in 2012 when discussing attitudes in 1932. How foolish of me.



You are welcome to come to my house Rosh Hashanah and ask that question of my in-laws. I've been trying to get an answer to that question of 25 years, maybe you will have better luck.
And your in-laws will answer this question once and for all

All I am saying is that Europeans has always been suspicious of the Jews as an ethnic group not entirely loyal to their host countries. They were considered foreign element.
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Old 09-01-2012, 03:25 PM
 
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This is a fascinating thread - depressing, certainly but fascinating. It is still hard for me to even understand how there are so many who believed this holocaust never happened. Staggering to me that there are those who believe that historians simply have made it up. And, still, to this day, in my opinion, too many leaders / companies / countries disavow any responsibility or their contributions to these horrors.

France, Italy, the Swiss, bavarian countries - Spain - such a long list.

I have not thought of this movie for years - The Odessa File - SS leaders from a myriad of countries, post-war, hiding, yet still proclaiming justification and appropriateness of slaughtering.

Where does such hatred and vile come from -- being different / needing scapegoats / and incredible propaganda to blame.

Semitic means wanderer - antisemitic is to be against wanderers - lots of middle easterners were, way back, wanderers. Why were Jewish 'wanderers' primarily targeted?
'Wanderers' was referenced way back in biblical times --

Although I truly cannot believe that we as a society could / would ever create another holocaust, given the current flavor of bias, fear, prejudice, and peppered brainwashing and propaganda that is on the news these days, I would at least hope not.

We should certainly have learned something by now.

Sorry if I went off topic, a bit. []
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Old 09-01-2012, 04:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarmaple View Post
Although I truly cannot believe that we as a society could / would ever create another holocaust, given the current flavor of bias, fear, prejudice, and peppered brainwashing and propaganda that is on the news these days, I would at least hope not.
War on Terror bears some similarities. Not exact, but times have changed after all.
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Old 09-01-2012, 05:33 PM
 
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[quote=rebel12;25904978][quote=ovcatto;25904071]
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
No. It implies predominance of Jews in socialist movements in XIX century Europe.


Would you like to put some substantiation behind that assertion?

Quote:
And your in-laws will answer this question once and for all
They haven't answered the question the first time!

Quote:
All I am saying is that Europeans has always been suspicious of the Jews as an ethnic group not entirely loyal to their host countries. They were considered foreign element.
Suspicion, that's awfully polite to say nothing of being a gross understatement. Why you deny the Church's role in the development and maintenance of anti-Semitism is beyond me.

Last edited by ovcatto; 09-01-2012 at 05:45 PM..
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