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Old 09-01-2012, 04:38 PM
 
18,317 posts, read 15,376,318 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
In Paganist Russia?
What's about it?
You've heard about pogroms in paganist Russia, or you were there to testify on relations between Jews and Russians?


Quote:
If some people identify themselves as Jews, it doesn't mean that they are ethnic Jews. Just look at their faces - they sure don't all look Middle Eastern
You didn't answer my question regarding the nationalities in Soviet passports, or Jewish Autonomous Region for this matter. Once you'll answer these questions, everything will fall into places.

Quote:
You didn't witness that exodus - I did. Those were Russians, who jumped at the opportunity to leave to the developed country - getting some papers to "prove" their heritage was a trivial task.
I know perfectly well who immigrated in the nineties and why.
Those were mostly Jews from the different regions of the former Soviet Union; the most educated ones from big cities left USSR for the most part at the end of the seventies.
It's another thing that in the nineties a lot of people of mixed origin were accepted for immigration, including ethnic Russians who were often in-laws of Jewish families.

Last edited by erasure; 09-01-2012 at 04:55 PM..
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Old 09-02-2012, 03:47 AM
 
231 posts, read 445,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deezus View Post
I read that the Spanish allowed a small number of Jewish refugees into Spain mostly for transit into Portugal. The Spanish attitude towards the Jews was fairly ambivalent--there was no real large feeling of anti-semitism, mainly because there hadn't been very many Jews in Spain for over 400 years. The Spanish expelled pretty much the entire Jewish population during the Inquisition.

The Finns probably only had about a thousand Jews in the country, so like some other nations with small populations like Albania--they were able to protect them .

Spain DID NOT return a single Jew fleeing from Gestapo or Vichy authorities. Jews were interned in a retention camp were they were fed with food from US donations (at that time, food was severely rationed).

Spain was not ambivalent, Spanish authorities and Franco himself complained many times to Hitler about the atrocities committed against Sephardic Jews and Polish Catholics. The Spanish Embassador in Badapest (the Angel of Budapest) saved thousands of Jews, and Spain granted Spanish passports to many Sephardic Jews in a vain attempt to save them, Sarkozy's grandfather was one of them. Franco is considered by Israel as a friend of the Jewish people (even considering the fact that he did not have diplomatic relations with Israel) and he was of Sephardic lineage on his mother side.

Franco sympathized with Jews because Jews established in the Spanish Protectorate in Morroco helped him during the wars, and were instrumental in the Civil War, even though that he used them in his propaganda as virtual enemies (he used to repeat all the time that there was a "judeomasonic, leftist and liberal conspiracy against Spain, backed by decadent democracies"....but it was more of a mantra.
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Old 09-02-2012, 04:01 AM
 
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The neutrals made the business of the history ( especially switzerland ), others killed by ignorance and the allied played their role by closing the borders for refugees - but only for the poor. For example - in Poland and Rusia many jews had to die after the germans were gone.

I was raised in a Fascist country and your answer rings a bell in my head. You are using the typical Nazi/German excuse..."It was not our fault, the allies did not accept them"..."Swisss are to blame, because they got rich thanks to Jews"..."Jews had to die after Germans had gone"...as if German gave them beef as potatoes.

No, it was the fault of Germans.
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Old 09-02-2012, 04:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
This would mean that at least Finland, Spain and Portugal "protected" their small Jewish populations. Which is kind of suprising because Finalnd was a actual German ally and Spain was neutral but a pro-Axis dictatorship. I am guessing Portugal was similiar to Spain.

Albania is another country you never hear about regarding the Holocaust. Since it was conquered by Italy, maybe the Italian authorities plus the local Albanians might have at first protected the Jews. Plus, as you suggested the small Jewish population may have kept Albania under the Nazi radar screen.

Spain did not have any Jewish population during the 40's. If there were Jews, they were foreigners or some Sephardim that returned to their country after an absence of almost 500 years, sheltered by the law of Primo de Rivera in the 20's that recognized Sephardim as Hispanics. There were Jews in the Spanish Protectorate of Morroco, and they were Franco's allies.

There were many descendants of Jews, or cryptojews, mainly in Majorca and other areas, a large number of influential people with known Jewish ancestors that did their bit to help Jews.

The Spanish Fascist Group, Falange, protected Sephardim Jews since they were considered old Spanish, but at the same time used them in their propaganda as enemies.
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Old 09-02-2012, 04:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Three questions.

First, I think I read somewhere that Facist Italy (Mussolini) at first refused to give the Jews over to the Nazis. They later caved in, presumably as Italy began to weaken. Does anybody know if this is true?

Second, I have never read anything about what happened to the Jews in neutral Spain and Portugal. The Jewish populations were probably not that high in these countries but I am still wondering what the attitudes of their governments were --- especially Franco in Spain.

Third, what happened to the Jews in Finland? German ally in WW2 but stil independent.

Mussolini refusedto send Jews to Germany, but when Italy was occupied by Germans, some 1000 were sent to Germany...the rest were hidden by the church or by sympathizers.

Mussolini was not anti-Jew (Clara Petacci was Jewish and many Italian Fascist were Jews), but he used Jews in his histerical propaganda, as Franco did. In Spain, no Jew was ever touched. Spanish have a "guilt sense" towards Jews after their expulsion in 1492 (more than two thirds remained as conversed).
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Old 09-02-2012, 04:20 AM
 
231 posts, read 445,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaseMan View Post
Many of the Muslims in Southeastern Europe were very complicit. There was even a Muslim SS unit.

Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2

There was a Jewish SS Unit, "The Lions of Judah" (Begin was there).

Nazis were Sionists, they wanted and encouraged a Jewish state.
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Old 09-02-2012, 04:26 AM
 
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As long as they didn't go too far in angering the Germans(who just saw the Spanish as fellow fascists) they managed to sort of get away with it. On the other hand there's other reports that claim that Franco handed over a list of all Jews living in Spain to the Germans.


Totally FALSE. Not a SINGLE JEW was returned to the Gestapo. Franco did not give a s-h.it if he angered Hitler, he told him that of he kept massacring Jews and Polish Catholics and attacking England, he was going to loose the war. As early as 1942, he knew that the "caporal" was going to loose the war, and he fired Foreign Miniester Serrano-Sunyer, a Nazi sympathizer, and appinted Count Jordana, that was pro-ally, pro-British.
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Old 09-02-2012, 04:33 AM
 
231 posts, read 445,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilVA View Post
He was born one. It doesn't mean he lived as one. kaganovich had Jewish parents, became an apostate and joined the bolsheviks. He oppressed Jews and violated Jewish law. Observant Jews actively fought the bolsheviks and the communists.

He was a butcher.


lazar moiseyevich kaganovich - YouTube

This thread is on nations and not to cherry pick individual people that happen to fit your agenda.

Many of the worst anti-Jewish manics have Jewish origin. My homonym Torquemada, for example.
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Old 09-02-2012, 10:26 AM
 
9,965 posts, read 15,404,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torquemation View Post
Totally FALSE. Not a SINGLE JEW was returned to the Gestapo. Franco did not give a s-h.it if he angered Hitler, he told him that of he kept massacring Jews and Polish Catholics and attacking England, he was going to loose the war. As early as 1942, he knew that the "caporal" was going to loose the war, and he fired Foreign Miniester Serrano-Sunyer, a Nazi sympathizer, and appinted Count Jordana, that was pro-ally, pro-British.
I never said the Spanish deported any Jews. As far as what I did reference, I'm not even sure if it's true or not regarding the reports that Franco turned over a list of Jews living in Spain to the Nazis, but take it up with El Pais--they're the ones who reported that.

La lista de Franco para el Holocausto | Edición impresa | EL PAÍS

Franco drew up list of 6,000 Jews in Spain for Hitler - Telegraph

Last edited by Deezus; 09-02-2012 at 10:41 AM..
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:47 AM
 
1,730 posts, read 1,804,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
You've heard about pogroms in paganist Russia, or you were there to testify on relations between Jews and Russians?
I've heard about pogroms - which were assaults on the rich during the times of political crises

Quote:
You didn't answer my question regarding the nationalities in Soviet passports, or Jewish Autonomous Region for this matter. Once you'll answer these questions, everything will fall into places.
I'm not talking about beaurocracy, which is what these things are.

Quote:
I know perfectly well who immigrated in the nineties and why.
Those were mostly Jews from the different regions of the former Soviet Union
Then you no nothing. Almost all of them were white European looking people, who paid (sorry, I don't remember the costs, but they were not too high) for papers "proving" their heritage.

There are some hot discussions in Israel, if they should force all ex-Soviet immigrants to prove it again - and not by papers, issued after USSR collapsed.

Quote:
It's another thing that in the nineties a lot of people of mixed origin were accepted for immigration, including ethnic Russians who were often in-laws of Jewish families.
Mixed, plus a lot of not Jewish at all... That's if we accept that ethnic Jews exist - because it's hard to believe, considering that they originated in Central Europe many centuries after being kicked out of the Middle East.

Even if they somehow managed to not marry non-Jews, over such a long period infidelities and rapes would probably destroy their ethnicity anyway.
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