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Old 09-03-2012, 08:25 AM
 
306 posts, read 383,992 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave View Post
Been interested in a Military Channel show called Nazi Collaborators. They've shown several countries that willingly, without any threats of violence from Nazi troops, committed acts of rape, torture, and mass murder of their own Jewish neighbors. Some were so vicious and violent that theNazis felt they had to take control of them befor they got out of hand. Troops from these countries willingly went into other countries to exterminate Jews. Lithuania was one of these countries.

Does any one have a list of nations that willingly worked with Nazis to exterminate Jews?

Romania is one of the countries that make that list:

History of the Jews in Romania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even today, antisemitism is widely spread in Romania.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
No. It implies predominance of Jews in socialist movements in XIX century Europe.


Would you like to put some substantiation behind that assertion?
C'mon! Get a history book. First of all Karl Marx - the founder of socialism was a Jew and then:

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Jews played a major role in the Social Democratic parties of Germany, Russia, Austria-Hungary and Poland. Historian Enzo Traverso has used the term "Judeo-Marxism" to describe the innovative forms of Marxism associated with these Jewish socialists. These ranged from strongly cosmopolitan positions hostile to all forms of nationalism (as with Rosa Luxemburg and, to a lesser extent, Leon Trotsky) to positions more sympathetic to cultural nationalism (as with the Austromarxists or Vladimir Medem). Again, it is probable that most of these figures would not have considered themselves to be part of an explicitly "Jewish" left, but the significant number of Jews active in diverse movements and parties "on the left" is relevant.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_left#section_2


The socialist/communist movement in Germany had so many prominent Jewish members (diaproportionate to Jewish population) that to many Germans socialism appeared as foreign or Jewish concept altogether. To many it was an assault on the state by Jewish minority and at the time German state was crippled by WWI....

Then of course we have a history of Jewish radicals: anarchists, socialist, Communists, Zionists in Imperial Russia later taking prominent positions in Soviet Union.

Now, before you jump to conclusions I am not saying that the above justifies extermination of Jews but if you are really looking for an answer to what sparked antisemitism in XIX and XX century Europe you have to understand that to some extent it was a reaction to first Jewish emancipation movement:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Emancipation

and then Jewish flirt with liberalism and socialism. (See above)

Of course it easier to just say that anti-semitism in Europe was fueled by the Church but it is not consistent with history of Catholic and other Christian churches opposing extermination of Jews and saving thousands of Jews during the Holocaust

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catho...any#section_11

Last edited by rebel12; 09-03-2012 at 03:30 PM..
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:40 PM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,485,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torquemation View Post
There was a Jewish SS Unit, "The Lions of Judah" (Begin was there).

Nazis were Sionists, they wanted and encouraged a Jewish state.
Torque

Do you have a source on this?
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:54 PM
 
18,565 posts, read 15,572,665 times
Reputation: 8145
[quote=rebel12;25928050][quote=ovcatto;25906560]
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post

C'mon. Get a history book. First of all Karl Marx was a Jew and then:

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Jews played a major role in the Social Democratic parties of Germany, Russia, Austria-Hungary and Poland. Historian Enzo Traverso has used the term "Judeo-Marxism" to describe the innovative forms of Marxism associated with these Jewish socialists. These ranged from strongly cosmopolitan positions hostile to all forms of nationalism (as with Rosa Luxemburg and, to a lesser extent, Leon Trotsky) to positions more sympathetic to cultural nationalism (as with the Austromarxists or Vladimir Medem). Again, it is probable that most of these figures would not have considered themselves to be part of an explicitly "Jewish" left, but the significant number of Jews active in diverse movements and parties "on the left" is relevant.

Jewish left - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The socialist/communist movement in Germany had so many prominent Jewish members (diaproportionate to Jewish population) that to many Germans socialism appeared as foreign or Jewish concept altogether. To many it was an assault on the state by Jewish minority.

Then of course we have a history of Jewish radicals: anarchists, socialist, Communists, Zionists in Imperial Russia later taking prominent positions in Soviet Union.

Now, before you jump to conclusions I am not saying that the above justifies extermination of Jews but if you are really looking for an answer to what sparked antisemitism in XIX and XX century Europe you have to understand that to some extent it was a reaction to first Jewish emancipation movement:

Jewish emancipation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and then Jewish flirt with liberalism and socialism.

Of course it easier to just say that anti-semitism in Europe was fueled by the Church but it is not consistent with history of Catholic and other Christian churches opposing extermination of Jews and saving thousands of Jews during the Holocaust

Catholic Church and Nazi Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yet another spin of yours)))
Disregard the long chain of persecution of Jews in Europe long before any Communist ideas came in place, and then point at Jewish acceptance of cosmopolitan/socialist ideas in Europe as a source for hatred towards them.
That's how ( according to your logic) Catholic Church becomes the savior of Jews, while Christianity ( as a source of hatred towards Jews) all of a sudden becomes obsolete)))
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
I've heard about pogroms - which were assaults on the rich during the times of political crises


I'm not talking about beaurocracy, which is what these things are.


Then you no nothing. Almost all of them were white European looking people, who paid (sorry, I don't remember the costs, but they were not too high) for papers "proving" their heritage.

There are some hot discussions in Israel, if they should force all ex-Soviet immigrants to prove it again - and not by papers, issued after USSR collapsed.


Mixed, plus a lot of not Jewish at all... That's if we accept that ethnic Jews exist - because it's hard to believe, considering that they originated in Central Europe many centuries after being kicked out of the Middle East.

Even if they somehow managed to not marry non-Jews, over such a long period infidelities and rapes would probably destroy their ethnicity anyway.
And that's why Ashkenazis look different than Sefardic Jews. Still Jews are proud of their lineage going back thousands years back in time... they are still a nation.
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Old 09-03-2012, 03:04 PM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,485,519 times
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[quote=erasure;25928206][quote=rebel12;25928050]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post

Yet another spin of yours)))
Disregard the long chain of persecution of Jews in Europe long before any Communist ideas came in place, and then point at Jewish acceptance of cosmopolitan/socialist ideas in Europe as a source for hatred towards them.
That's how ( according to your logic) Catholic Church becomes the savior of Jews, while Christianity ( as a source of hatred towards Jews) all of a sudden becomes obsolete)))
But the Catholic church is not the source of antisemitism. What about the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans? What about Muslim persecution of Jews?

The church is not the source of antisemitism, its older than Christianity.
Yes, the Jews were definetely persecuted in Christian Europe as a religious minority but Holocaust has nothing to do with that or the Church: Hitler wasn't even a practicing Christian and Nazis were generally anti-christian.
Do some reading on Jewish emancipation movement and treatment of Catholics by the Nazis...
Do some reading Erasure and fianlly throw out those Soviet history books you are reading: there is more Communist propaganda in them than actual knowledge...
You are operating on old commie cliches Erasure.

Last edited by rebel12; 09-03-2012 at 03:13 PM..
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Old 09-03-2012, 03:09 PM
 
18,565 posts, read 15,572,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
I've heard about pogroms - which were assaults on the rich during the times of political crises
Ha-ha you are funny...
Pogrom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Quote:
I'm not talking about beaurocracy, which is what these things are.
Oh really? Pale of Settlement in Russia was bureaucracy too?

Pale of Settlement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Quote:
Then you no nothing. Almost all of them were white European looking people, who paid (sorry, I don't remember the costs, but they were not too high) for papers "proving" their heritage.

There are some hot discussions in Israel, if they should force all ex-Soviet immigrants to prove it again - and not by papers, issued after USSR collapsed.
Of course many of them were not all that pure Jews any longer as those who were allowed to immigrate in Soviet times; a lot of them were of mixed origin, plus Russian/other ethnicities including - members of the extended families, however it has got nothing to do with looks. European Jews look for the most part European - just check out the pictures of the WWII.
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Old 09-03-2012, 03:15 PM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,485,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torquemation View Post
Many of the worst anti-Jewish manics have Jewish origin. My homonym Torquemada, for example.
I know, you're the funny guy from that Mel Brooks movie
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Old 09-03-2012, 03:18 PM
 
18,565 posts, read 15,572,665 times
Reputation: 8145
[quote=rebel12;25928319][quote=erasure;25928206]
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post

But the Catholic church is not the source of hatred for the Jews. What about the Egypatians, Greeks and Romans? What about Muslims?

The church is not the source of antisemitism, its older than Christianity.
Jews were persecuted in Christian Europe as a religious minority but Holocaust has nothing to do with that or the Church: Hitler wasn't even a practicing Christian and Nazis were generally anti-christian.
Do some reading on Jewish emancipation movement and treatment of Catholics by the Nazis...
Do some reading Erasure and fianlly throw out those Soviet history books you are reading: there is more Communist propaganda in them than actual knowledge...
You are operating on old commie cliches Erasure.
No, I don't think that Catholic Church is a source of hatred for Jews - Christianity is, or better to say part of so-called Christians.
Church has got nothing to do with Holocaust either of course; Hitler felt sorry that Germany was Christian country to begin with; Islam was more fitting for his purposes and he has admitted that.

PS.Where would I find Soviet history books in the US?
You know the store/library in hiding that you are secretly attending yourself?
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Old 09-03-2012, 03:27 PM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,485,519 times
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[quote=erasure;25928511][quote=rebel12;25928319]
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post

No, I don't think that Catholic Church is a source of hatred for Jews - Christianity is, or better to say part of so-called Christians.
Christianity was the source of antisemitism in ancient Egypt, Greece and pre-Christian Rome ? Funny

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Church has got nothing to do with Holocaust either of course; Hitler felt sorry that Germany was Christian country to begin with; Islam was more fitting for his purposes and he has admitted that.
Islam? Again super funny. Nazis did not need any religion: they created their own based mostly on old pagan German myths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
PS.Where would I find Soviet history books in the US?
In your head. You keep on repeating old Communist propaganda cliches over and over again.
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