were the Moors black? (Britain, 70's, Ireland, slaves)
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Well after travelling to Morocco I found the population to be fairly diverse. People ranged from lighter-skinned with more European features to looking like Arabs to darker more African looks. Plenty of people at both ends of the skin color sprectrum spoke Berber and were proud of their Berber heritage. It's a multi-ethnic society in some ways, though it's seems to blend together in a lot of areas. There were plenty of people who looked similar to Sub-Saharan Africans, but in general I'd say that the average person could vary in terms of what ethnicity they looked like. Berber(just like Arab) is more a broad cultural group than a narrowly defined ethnic group--not even defined solely by linguistic ties at this point.
Perhaps historically North Africa would've been a mix of different ethnicities that fell under the term "Moors" by the Europeans?
Perhaps historically North Africa would've been a mix of different ethnicities that fell under the term "Moors" by the Europeans?
It was posted earlier in the thread. Historically the term "Moor" finds its root in the Roman word Maurus which was applied to the people that inhabited northwest Africa (hence the root of the country Mauritania). From there when it was adopted into the Romance languages it at first referred specifically to the Berber people of western Libya. It then grew into a more generalized term during the Middle Ages as anyone with "dark skin" and had a dual meaning similar to the word "Saracens" as a Christian version of the word "infidel". So, the term became universally applied to any person with darker skin from Arabs in Arabia to Afrcians and also to anyone that was non-Christian. For instance, in Spain, unbaptized children were also referred to as "moors". In the modern era it has a more direct meaning and can refer to people in Morocco, North Africa in general, southern Portugese, Phillipine Muslims and Sri Lankan Muslims of Arab descent.
In terms of phenotype, it was said earlier as well and while I would prefer to avoid the pissing match, I'll state it once again. According to Keita the population of North Africa even as far back as 1500BC was incredibly diverse. According to Keita: "the data supported the comments from ancient authors observed by classicists: everything from fair-skinned blonds to peoples who were dark-skinned 'Ethiopian' or part Ethiopian in appearance." He also attributes the differences to "in situ" natural variation and not caused by the introduction of outside influences. There were of course plenty of outside influences on the Berbers from Arab invaders to European slaves to sub-Saharan African slaves, but the modern Berbers share 70%-80% of their genetic markers with ancient Berbers. So, there were Moors that looked almost northern European and ones that were decidedly what we would socially refer to as "black", all were African, just like they are today.
The simple answer is this....if someone plucked the average "moor" from the 12th century North Africa and dropped them into 20th century America then that "moor" would have been classified as a "Negro".
Fascinating but whatever America chooses to deem "Negro" does not mean it's either scientifically justifiable or applicable outside of America or in history. Hate to break it to you but race is a social construct unique and different between cultures and states.
I don't think the Moors had sub-saharan 'African' features; this is not seen in Spain where the Moors assimilated to a certain degree. Interestingly, my Colonial ancestors in New Hampshire had Moor as a first name. Strange for men of the landowning class in New England to be calling themselves by this first name.
Oh boy,
What is "African features"? There is NO SUCH THING!
This one done by famous painter Ludwig Deutsch in mid/later 1800s
So I show all that to say 1. There is no ONE way to look African. Africa is one of the most physiologically diverse continents on the planet if not the most. Secondly, yes the Moors were depicted as black with features that you most definitively could find on the continent of Africa.
Fascinating but whatever America chooses to deem "Negro" does not mean it's either scientifically justifiable or applicable outside of America or in history. Hate to break it to you but race is a social construct unique and different between cultures and states.
Be that as it may, The Moors were Black Africans, and they would not have been confused for anything else, but that.
This one done by famous painter Ludwig Deutsch in mid/later 1800s
So I show all that to say 1. There is no ONE way to look African. Africa is one of the most physiologically diverse continents on the planet if not the most. Secondly, yes the Moors were depicted as black with features that you most definitively could find on the continent of Africa.
Suprisingly you didn't list any photos of any "Africans" from North Africa. The last three of "Moors" are simply European stereotypical portrayals...
"Moor" was simply a broad grouping given by the Europeans to everyone in North Africa--which would included people of a variety of looks and ethnicities going back to the Roman period. Just like there's no skin color associated with the "Berber" culture at this point.
Berbers are not black at all and they are Asian in origin. The presence of Subsaharans in North Africa is fairly recent, they were brought by the same slave traders that captured blacks for the American trade during the 15th and 17th Centuries. Before that, blacks were a very scarce minority both in North Africa and Europe, they generally were slaves of very rich people and a sign of richness. For example, Caliphs in Spain had a personal guard composed by black, Vikings and christian mercenaries as a sign of wealth. The black head that represented moors during the Middle Ages were just a sign that Medieval People loved gaudy things and were very ignorant about the world beyond 5 miles.
"Moor" was simply a broad grouping given by the Europeans to everyone in North Africa--which would included people of a variety of looks and ethnicities going back to the Roman period. Just like there's no skin color associated with the "Berber" culture at this point.
Originally Posted by calipoppy The simple answer is this....if someone plucked the average "moor" from the 12th century North Africa and dropped them into 20th century America then that "moor" would have been classified as a "Negro".
I'd say they would be tagged as Sicilians, Jews, Italian, white Hispanics, Armenians, Greeks or the average Joe. There were not subsaharan Blacks in North Africa at that time, only a few slaves.
I find that Afrocentrists are pathetic trying to introduce Africans into the Classical world. Blacks were a rarity in Classical World, black slaves were so rare that they were very expensive and they were Nubians.
Nubians were not Bantus or your classical subsaharan black. At the movie Spartacus, the Nubian slave was quite precise.
Moors
Last edited by Gargamel10; 02-23-2013 at 05:33 AM..
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