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Old 02-18-2013, 07:23 PM
 
13,890 posts, read 19,374,858 times
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Famine killed 7 million people in USA

19.05.2008


Pages: 12

Another online scandal has been gathering pace recently. Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, deleted an article by a Russian researcher, who wrote about the USA’s losses in the Great Depression of 1932-1933. Indignant bloggers began to actively distribute the article on the Russian part of a popular blog service known as Livejournal. The above-mentioned article triggered a heated debate.
The researcher touched upon quite a hot topic in the article – the estimation of the number of victims of the Great Depression in the USA. The material presented in the article apparently made Wikipedia’s moderators delete the piece from the database of the online encyclopedia.
The researcher, Boris Borisov, in his article titled “The American Famine” estimated the victims of the financial crisis in the US at over seven million people. The researcher also directly compared the US events of 1932-1933 with Holodomor, or Famine, in the USSR during 1932-1933.
In the article, Borisov used the official data of the US Census Bureau. Having revised the number of the US population, birth and date rates, immigration and emigration, the researcher came to conclusion that the United States lost over seven million people during the famine of 1932-1933.
“According to the US statistics, the US lost not less than 8 million 553 thousand people from 1931 to 1940. Afterwards, population growth indices change twice instantly exactly between 1930-1931: the indices drop and stay on the same level for ten years. There can no explanation to this phenomenon found in the extensive text of the report by the US Department of Commerce “Statistical Abstract of the United States,” the author wrote.

The researcher points out the movement of population at this point: “A lot more people left the country than arrived during the 1930s – the difference is estimated at 93,309 people, whereas 2.960,782 people arrived in the country a decade earlier. Well, let’s correct the number of total demographic losses in the USA during the 1930s by 3,054 people.”
Analyzing the period of the Great Depression in the USA, the author notes a remarkable similarity with events taking place in the USSR during the 1930s. He even introduced a new term for the USA – defarming – an analogue to dispossession of wealthy farmers in the Soviet Union. “Few people know about five million American farmers (about a million families) whom banks ousted from them lands because of debts. The US government did not provide them with land, work, social aid, pension – nothing,” the article says.
“Every sixth American farmer was affected by famine. People were forced to leave their homes and go to nowhere without any money and any property. They found themselves in the middle of nowhere enveloped in massive unemployment, famine and gangsterism.”
The then state of affairs in the US society can be seen in Peter Jackson’s movie King Kong. The movie starts with scenes of the Great Depression and tells the story of an actress who did not eat for three days and tried to steal an apple from a street vendor. There is food in the city, but many people had no money to buy it in unemployment-paralyzed New York. People starve in the streets against the background of stores selling a variety of foodstuffs.
At the same time, the US government tried to get rid of redundant foodstuffs, which vendors could not sell. Market rules were observed strictly: unsold goods should always be categorized as redundant and they could not be given away to the poor because it could cause damage to businesses. A variety of methods was used to destroy redundant food. They burnt crops, drowned them in the ocean or plowed 10 million hectares of harvesting fields. “About 6.5 million pigs were killed at that time,” the researcher wrote.
The consequences of those policies were predictable, the author of the article wrote. “Here is what a child recollected about those years: “We changed our usual food for something for available. We used to eat bush leaves instead of cabbage. We ate frogs too. My mother and my older sister died during a year.” (Jack Griffin).”
So-called public works introduced by President Roosevelt became a salvation for a huge number of jobless and landless Americans. However, the salvation was only a phantom, Boris Borisov wrote. The works conducted under the aegis of the Public Works Administration and the Civil Works Administration were about building channels, roads or bridges in remote, wild and dangerous territories. Up to 3.3 million people were involved in those works at a time, whereas the total number of people amounted to 8.5 million, not to count prisoners.
“Conditions and death rate at those works are to be studied separately. A member of public works would make $30, and pay $25 of taxes from this amount. So a person could make only $5 for a month of hard work in malarial swamps.”
The conditions, under which people were working for food, could be compared to Stalin’s GULAG camp.

“The Public Works Administration (PWA) bore a striking resemblance to GULAG. The PWA was chaired by “American Beria,” the Secretary of Interior Affairs, Harold Ickes, who threw about two million people into camps for the unemployed youth,” Borisov wrote. “Harold LeClair Ickes (1874–1952) later interned USA’s ethnic Japanesein concentration camps. The first stage of the operation took only 72 hours (1941-1942).
“In 1940, the US population was supposed to make up at least 141.856 million people upon the preservation of previous demographic trends. As a matter of fact, the USA had the 131.409-strong population in 1940, of which only 3.054 million can be explained with changes in migration dynamics. Thus, 7.394,000 people simply do not exist as of 1940. There are no official arguments to explain the phenomenon,” Boris Borisov wrote.
It is worthy of note that modern-day Russian patriotic historians reject methods of research based on the general estimation of demographic losses. They believe that demographic processes are not linear and depend on a number of factors. Such historians think that victims of communism estimations made on the base of demographic research works by Stephan Kurt and Richard Pipes, which George Bush and Helen Bonner announced at the opening of Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation in Washington, are false.
On the other hand, these methods are widely used in contemporary science of history. Ukrainian historian Stanislav Kulchitsky used the method to calculate the number of victims of the Ukrainian Holodomor (famine), which was subsequently officially recognized. Parliaments of eleven countries that recognized Holodomor use those numbers in their research works. To crown it all, the US Congress and the European Union also use Kulchitsky’s numbers considering the problem.
Photo by: todaysteacher.com
Dmitry Lyskov
Pravda.ru

Translated by Dmitry Sudakov
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Here.
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Thank you for clipping and pasting some random article off the internet. Your skills are very thought provoking.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,757 posts, read 4,622,274 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
Thank you for clipping and pasting some random article off the internet. Your skills are very thought provoking.
Still, it was a worth while read and I appreciate the OP posting it. NOw if only they would come back and add some commentary.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:17 AM
 
14,781 posts, read 38,581,656 times
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This "research" was debated before in one of the threads on the Holodomor. Borisov was not attempting to make any actual claims about deaths or conditions in the US. He was protesting the methodologies used to calculate deaths attributed to the Holodomor in the Ukraine. In 2008 the US House of Representatives issued a condemnation of the Ukrainian famine in 1932-33 as a genocide. Borisov is a historian who disagrees that the events in the Ukraine were actually a man-made famine/genocide. He believed that the statement released by the US House was politically motivated and the number of deaths quoted was based on sloppy analytical data. To illustrate this, he basically released a satirical report about conditions and deaths in the US during the Great Depression.

He claims he used the same methods other researches used for the Ukraine to come up with his "7 million people dead from famine in the US" figure. He then went on to illustrate how simple twists of logic can make regular policies seem draconian. That is the bit about comparing programs like the Public Works Administration to the GULAG system. He was not actually being serious about what happened in the US, it was satire to attack the methodologies that other researchers apply to the Ukrainian famine to label it a genocide.

The article has gained internet fame as people who do not understand it as the satire it was meant to be attempt to use it as a valid research piece. It became infamous after it was deleted by Wikipedia and many people claim that it is some kind of conspiracy to cover up the truth. The truth is, it was deleted from the sections of wikipedia dealing with the Depression because it is not an actual research piece, it is and was always intended to be satire. There are dozens of mentions of Borisov and his article all over wikipedia in both English and other languages.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Here.
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^ That may all be true, but what is missing is what ukrkoz thinks of the matter.
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Old 04-26-2020, 01:35 AM
 
10 posts, read 4,427 times
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Default thoughts on this "research" explained

I have removed all website links due to my previous post being removed. Unfortunately, readers will not be able to verify the data from the US Census website. If the mod allows me to post links, I will.

I know another member said Boris wrote this article in satire, but after watching his interview, I do not see that. What proof is there of satire?

This is a longer post, but it corrects the false and misleading information about 7 million Americans dying in a famine in the 1930s. If you read until the end, you will find out how this pro-Russia, anti-America "news" outlet allowed a man to post his twisted understanding of historical facts to fit his own narrative.

When doing critical analysis of a new claim, you need to look at the author's credibility, any potential bias, and the facts they used.

The burden of proof lies on the one making the new claim. Let's look at the article. The author is Boris Borisov, and he is listed as a historian and wrote "Where did America’s missing millions go? Holodomor Lessons." The author puts his entire claim on 1 faulty calculation that he based on the US population from 1910-1940, and he doesn't fully understand the low birth rate at that time, the number of deportations, the huge drop in immigration, and the increase in emigration.

Let's see how people bite Boris' big bait and get hooked.

Comrade Boris' article was written on April 4, 2008 and was first posted on Russia Today on Oct 15, 2008. Russia Today is the first Russian 24/7 English-language news channel which brings the Russian view on global news. They are funded by the Russian government and their American news company (RT America) was ordered to register as a foreign agent in 2017 because they participate in political activity. They complied. In other countries, RT has been fined for biased reporting (and they paid the fine), and RT reporters have quit due to RT's disinformation campaigns.

Comrade Boris' original article is supposed to be at RT's website, but the website shows a 404 error. It is archived at Wayback Machine's web archive from Oct 18, 2008. Why would RT remove Comrade Boris' article from their website? That webpage has been showing an error for years.

They kept his interview about his original article from Oct 22, 2008. (Look for the RT interview with Boris Borisov)

First, who is Boris Borisov? What credentials does he have? Has he written any books? Has he published any peer-reviewed articles in any journals? Does he teach at a university? Does he have a history of quality journalism? Who is his employer? Nothing is listed about him except that he is a historian. This is his only article on RT.

What bias might he have? Look at the title and his last sentence. In 2008, Russia was getting a lot of bad press from the US and other countries about the Ukrainian famine (Holodomor) that occurred in 1932, and Comrade Boris was trying to compare that to the 1930s in America. When Stalin led the Soviet Union, an estimated 5-7 million people starved to death. His last line says "In fact, the U.S. should stop barking at Russia, which they usually do, and sniff their own butt instead." He is prejudiced against America for chastising Russia and is looking to find a "you did it too" event. He also calls America the "Western Evil Empire."

Comrade Boris makes several false claims at the beginning of his article.

He writes "just like you won’t find anything on the genocide of the indigenous people. American politicians don’t give passionate speeches on the subject."

He hasn't done enough research because in 2000, the "the head of the federal Bureau of Indian Affairs apologized Friday for the agency's 'legacy of racism and inhumanity' that included massacres, forced relocations of tribes and attempts to wipe out Indian languages and cultures." (Washington Post)

Ouch Boris! You're loosing credibility!

Comrade Boris writes, "Of course, according to the American version of history 'millions of men, women and children became the victims the criminal and cruel totalitarian regime in the Soviet Union'. American history cannot be described in these terms. Let’s disprove this myth, using American sources."

Later in his footnotes, he says "U.S. information is not reliable."

Ok Boris. You're going to try and prove something with information you don't think is reliable. That makes a lot of sense.

Comrade Boris also claims "statistics from 1932 were destroyed – or hidden very well. They just don’t exist. No explanation is given." If you look on the Statistical Abstracts page, the explanation says "Note: No abstract was prepared for year 1932." (US Census Statistical Abstracts)

They also didn't prepare an Abstract in 1923 or 1927. Boom! Another hit on Boris!

Comrade Boris isn't looking at the correct population chart. He falsely claims "the numbers of increase in population change at one point by 2 times - exactly at the border betwee [there was no "n" in the article] 1930/31. They fall and freeze at this level for 10 years. And just as suddenly, a decade later, they climb back up."

Wrong again Comrade! According to the Vital Statistics of the United States (Census Bureau) publication, the US population increased by about 1 million people every year from 1930-1940. It never falls and freezes. Never! Boom! Strike 3!

Comrade Boris is only looking at the Statistical Abstracts data between 1931 to 1940. Why he used these statistical summaries (that include social, political, and economic data) as opposed to the actual census data, we'll never know.

He tries to make the claim that there should have been about a 15% increase in the US population from 1930-1940. In 1932, there were about 125 million people, and by 1940, Comrade Boris thought there should have been around 141 million people, but there were only around 132 million people.

He writes, "According to the calculations, in 1940, the US population should have amounted to at least 141,856,000 people, given that the previous demographic tendency was preserved."

What calculations? What tendency? He doesn't list them or provide any statistical modeling. My theory is that he looked at the previous 20 years and tried to come up with a projected number. He didn't look at 30 years ago, 40, 50, 60, etc. He limited himself to a narrow window of 20 years.

Let's look at the US Population table at (US Census Table 4)

1940 (Apr. 1) 132,164,569

1930 (Apr. 1) 123,202,624

1920 (Jan. 1) 106,021,537

1910 (Apr. 15) 92,228,496

1900 (June 1) 76,212,168

From 1930-1940, there was an increase of 7.3%. From 1920-1930, there was an increase of 16.2%. From 1910-1920, there was an increase of 15%. From 1900-1910, there was an increase of 21%.

My theory is that Comrade Boris calculated that since 1920-1930 had an increase of 16.2% and 1910-1920 had an increase of 15%, 1930-1940 should have had a similar number. His projection of at least 141,856,000 people by 1940 means he was expecting a 15.14% increase in the population. When this did not happen, he concluded that millions of people died.

What he failed to acknowledge was that since 1880, the population rate had been declining. The population was increasing, but not as quickly. Look at the full census chart on that webpage. It was growing quickly around 1880 but had not grown as fast since then. Why didn't Comrade Boris balk at the 6% drop (21%->15%) from 1910-1920?

Comrade Boris says "we can surely say there were around 5 million victims of the Holodomor of 1932/33 in the United States."

What other historians have verified this claim? None.

Where are the graves of 5 million people dying in one year? They don't exist. Influenza killed around 675,000 Americans in 1918 and there are plenty of facts, pictures, and data about that. But nothing was recorded about 5 million people dying in 1932? Come on, Comrade.

Go look at the mortality statistics for 1932 and 1933 on the census. (CDC Statistics 1890-1938)

1932 - the top killers were cancer, heart disease, and kidney infections (page 11). No starvation. No malnutrition.

1933 - the top killers were tuberculosis, cancer, blood clots, and heart disease (pages 36-39). No starvation. No malnutrition.

If you look at the RT interview with Comrade Boris posted above, he says "Seven and a half million people does not mean the number of particular victims of the famine, but a general demographic loss, or the difference between the supposed population on the date of the census that was due to be held in 1940 and the factual number of people."

So a week after he posted that article, Comrade Boris is now saying that they all didn't die of a famine.

Comrade Boris used an unknown statistical model to predict how many people should have been alive by a certain year, and when reality didn't fit his prediction, he made up the claim that people had died. Why was there a drop in population numbers? A low birth rate, deportations, a huge drop in immigration, and an increase in emigration.

The birth rate was already dropping in the late 1920s. The number of births was the lowest it has ever been in 1933. If you look at 1900-1929, and then from 1940-2000, you can see that the number of births were at the lowest point in the 1930s. (CDC)

Immigration dropped by at least 50%. For each decade since 1900, immigration was around 8 million, 6 million, and 4 million. In the 1930s, it was 699,375. That means at least 2-3 million potential immigrants were denied entry or didn't come to the USA because of the economic depression. (DHS Yearbook - Immigration Statistics 2008, Table 2, page 13)

1-2 million Mexicans were deported in the 1930s. Boom! Comrade Boris didn't mention that! These numbers did not show up on the emigration tables. (The Atlantic, March 2017, America's Brutal Forgotten History)

Around 2.5 million emigrants departed from 1930-1940. page 23 (US Census 1789-1945)

That's about 7 million people. The population from 1930-1940 increased from 123 million people to 132 million. Comrade Boris was predicting 141 million based on the growth rate of the previous 20 years. What are some reasons for not as many people being recorded on the census? People were deported, emigrated (he does mention this), had a low birth rate (he mentions this too), barred from entry to the States due to President Hoover's strict immigration policy that was modified in 1929, died (but not 5 million in one year), or just didn't fill out the census form.

Boom!

In conclusion, what other credible news outlets have posted Comrade Boris' article? None.

Since 2008, there have been a few fringe blog sites, conspiracy theory sites, and small news aggregate sites that host it.

Comrade Boris may only be familiar with a government controlled media outlet. In the US, there is freedom of the press. Countless independent journalists, newspaper writers, and photographers crisscrossed the country in the 1930s and reported on events. Not a single picture, newspaper article, or report was ever written about millions of Americans dying of a famine. The US census data confirms there was not millions of people dying in 1 year. The population was increasing, the mortality rate was dropping, and the life expectancy was growing.
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Old 04-26-2020, 09:29 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
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This thread is over 7 years old. Most of us had forgotten about it.

You can't post active links until you've made 10 posts and been a member for a while.
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Old 04-26-2020, 11:29 AM
 
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Yeah this was from 2013. You do a google search using the first sentence and you find the exact cut and paste text all over the internet, exclusively from Russian based english language news sources (yeah...pravda. One site was like a neo-Stalinist site...yeah because Stalin was such a great guy, just goes to show you can find anything on the internet). So we have an earlier example of Russian Troll factories at work.


So is this true or russian propaganda garbage?
It's garbage. Not to say people didn't starve due to economic conditions, but probably the number is in the 100s, quite a difference from "millions". User "Unique" did a good summary above, dismissing it. Yeah, the original article is garbage. Actually, just like today, there was a food SURPLUS during this time as demand was cut, in spite of the depression and "dust bowl" drought conditions in the plains. Farms were going under because people weren't buying food. Hoover was actually paying farmers NOT to grow. We actually had to create a government organization to manage this in the 30's - "Food Surplus Releif Organization".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa...es_Corporation
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Old 04-26-2020, 11:43 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
87,845 posts, read 81,615,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Yeah this was from 2013. You do a google search using the first sentence and you find the exact cut and paste text all over the internet, exclusively from Russian based english language news sources (yeah...pravda. One site was like a neo-Stalinist site...yeah because Stalin was such a great guy, just goes to show you can find anything on the internet). So we have an earlier example of Russian Troll factories at work.


So is this true or russian propaganda garbage?
It's garbage. Not to say people didn't starve due to economic conditions, but probably the number is in the 100s, quite a difference from "millions". User "Unique" did a good summary above, dismissing it. Yeah, the original article is garbage. Actually, just like today, there was a food SURPLUS during this time as demand was cut, in spite of the depression and "dust bowl" drought conditions in the plains. Farms were going under because people weren't buying food. Hoover was actually paying farmers NOT to grow. We actually had to create a government organization to manage this in the 30's - "Food Surplus Releif Organization".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa...es_Corporation
Also, the author wags his finger at the fact that there was no government relief for the starving masses. Social Security hadn't been "invented" yet. It was precisely the conditions of the Depression that motivated FDR to create it, and along with it, the widow's benefits program, designed to keep kids fed, too. Social Sec. was created in the second half of 1936.
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Old 04-27-2020, 05:22 AM
 
10 posts, read 4,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
User "Unique" did a good summary above, dismissing it. Yeah, the original article is garbage.
Yes, I had read many websites that said this was propgaganda, but I didn't find any that got down to the sources that Comrade Boris used and then proved him wrong. I tried to take each of claims and show that he skewed the data, didn't explain how he arrived at his results, and had a major bias in his writing. My goal is that future internet users will come across this page if they are searching for the truth behind these claims and won't have to do a deep dive themselves.
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