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Poland was weak. You only have to watch the cavalry charge against German armor to see that
Poland made no attempt to save Jews so mentioning the camps by name serves no purpose. They hated the Jews before the war. They hated them more after the war.
Are you really going to lump all Poles into one category? Assuming makes an a** out of me and you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinite_limit
- Unlike Western Europe, Poles would be killed (and families) for something as simple as giving out bread. This just illustrates how brave Poles were in saving their fellow country man's lives with statistic I posted above
My grandfather saved an entire building of Jews because he could speak very fluent German (I have some Prussian in the family I guess.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinite_limit
- Poland had fighter planes, bombers, tanks and submarines. People still believe that propaganda? How do you fight Germany, Russia, and Slovakia for longer than France with cavalry?
The Polish military was actually holding its own very well considering its situation (much better than France and the low countries to say the least...) until Stalin, allied with Nazi Germany, invaded Poland's eastern territories and effectively caused the collapse of organized Polish resistance. When Russia was "invaded" it was actually the Eastern part of Poland, but yet again this is just revisionist talk so what do I know...
What Germany-Poland pact, when Germans considered Poles an inferior race in the same manner as they considered Russians?
Just in case if it's news for you, they are both Slavic people.
Hitler illustrated he was willing to put racial differences aside for cooperation: Japan
He would have treated Poland the same as Hungary & Romania
To both of you, that you'd stop wondering too much; the sizable Jewish population in Poland had a lot to do with the Pale of Settlement so that you'd know...
"The Pale was first created by Catherine the Great in 1791, after several failed attempts by her predecessors, notably the Empress Elizabeth, to remove Jews from Russia entirely[citation needed], unless they converted to Russian Orthodoxy, the state religion. The reasons for its creation were primarily economic and nationalist.[citation needed] The institution of the Pale became more significant following the Second Partition of Poland in 1793, since until then, Russia's Jewish population had been rather limited; the dramatic westward expansion of the Czarist Empire through the annexation of Polish-Lithuanian territory increased the Jewish population substantially. At its height, the Pale, including the new Polish and Lithuanian territories, had a Jewish population of over 5 million, and represented the largest component (40 percent) of world Jewish population at that time."
Thank you for raising this point; most history courses below the college level pay no attention to the origins and diversity of the millions of agrarian Jews who settled in what became Poland -- you can get better-acquainted with the problem by watching Fiddler on the Roof than you will in most high schools. (The otherwise excellent TV documentary Holocaust, for example, revolved aroud an urbanized Jewish family, rather than the many more who lived in the shtetels). They were among the easiest to round up and exterminate -- because they had nowhere else to go.
Poland is what geographers characterize as a "weak nation"; that is, various outside factors -- in this case, a relatively small population caught between two strong neighbors, on flat, easily-inavaded territory, made the launching and sustenence of a nation-state more difficult. The Ukraine faces a similar obstacle. The addition of several million displaced people, committed to a strong religious tradition at odds with that of the natives, was a recipe for disaster.
It's emblematic of the problem tht until the fall of the Soviet Union, most Westerners were unaware that many former Jewish villages in Poland were left intact and not razed for many years. No reason to with agriculture at least semi-collectivized under Soviet rule. The magnitude of what happened in Poland 1942-1944 is both underestimated and misunderstood, because not enough attention is devoted to its origins.
Last edited by 2nd trick op; 05-01-2013 at 04:12 AM..
America wasn't trying to run the world at the time. That was a European problem. Our country adopted an isolationist stance after Ferdinand Foch wouldn't listen to Woodrow Wilson when he tried to tell him that the treaty of Versailles was a mistake and would force Germany to fight again.
So if you want to find a culprit for WWII, look at France. I don't know if that is what you're looking for. I know that Great Britain declared war on Germany when they attacked Poland. America supplied Great Britain and France and Russia with hardware for warfare.
Yes supplied equipment, mostly outdated and a lot of money in gold. Spikulirovala on millions of lives.
I am not sure what any other option Poland had but to fight the Nazi. I mean did they have any other options but to react after they were attacked?
As for "Nazi steam rolled everyone but vastly larger Russia" - it would have been a mistake to assume that "vast territories" were the only decisive factor for Russians to beat the Nazi who were highly organized and united behind their ideas.
I mean take someone like GreyKarast for example. Without really knowing English, he already managed to write like twenty five pages here to bring his point across.
Now put him in a tank, add few more friends of his and you'll get the idea.
In order to fight successfully someone as determined and bent on hell like Germans during the WWII, you've got to have someone as stubborn and set in their own ways as only Russians can be.
Not to be confused with the history What I described in another topic are historical facts relations between Poland and Russia. So do not poke your fingers.
Are you really going to lump all Poles into one category? Assuming makes an a** out of me and you...
My grandfather saved an entire building of Jews because he could speak very fluent German (I have some Prussian in the family I guess.)
The Polish military was actually holding its own very well considering its situation (much better than France and the low countries to say the least...) until Stalin, allied with Nazi Germany, invaded Poland's eastern territories and effectively caused the collapse of organized Polish resistance. When Russia was "invaded" it was actually the Eastern part of Poland, but yet again this is just revisionist talk so what do I know...
Stalin invaded Poland only to protect the Ukrainians, Bneelarusov, Russian, and took back the land that Russian
Under the contract of March 18, 1921, Lenin gave the chief of Poland Pilsudski Fascist vast areas of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus, these territories were incorporated into Poland. Millions of Russian (Great Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians) were cut off from the main mass of the people and handed over to Lenin under Polish fascist yoke. Under the mockery of the Poles.
Lenin also agreed to give the Nazi Poland 30 million rubles in gold coins or bullion. Poles Lenin began to pay "duty" for "Polish contribution to the economic development of the Russian Empire." This is what the Poles have made such a contribution to the economic development of the Russian Empire? In fact, it was the opposite, Russia has made a substantial contribution to the development of the Kingdom of Poland. It has created a new industrial areas, and the standard of living there was higher for the Poles than in the rest of the Russian Empire for. Not taken into account also the fact that during the First World War, more than three million refugees from Poland received shelter and food in Russia. Do not take into account the tens of thousands of Poles during the war fought against Russia, killing Russian.
Lenin agreed to refer Poland trains and other property worth 18,245 rubles in gold.
Lenin also forgave Poland all the king's debts.
(Documents of Soviet Foreign Policy, 3, Moscow, 1959, History of Soviet Foreign Policy, Part 1, 1917-1945, Moscow, 1966).
From December 1921 to June 1, 1924 Poland was transferred equipment 28 factories and many disparate equipment evacuated from its territory during World War II. In addition, the train passed the property was transferred to 300 locomotives, 435 passenger and 8,100 freight cars. Carried restitution: Poland back cultural and historical value, having been exported from its territory, from 1 January 1772. How many Poles looted in Russia - is not taken into consideration by the government of Lenin.
Pilsudski and the Polish government to follow the example of Hitler. And believe that if Hitler nobody gives paws on, then do not give too Polshi on paws. 11-12 March 1938, Hitler invades Austria and attaches it to Germany. Poland is trying to do the same and at the same time with Lithuania. Poles call Lithuania "Polish Austria." There unreleased live many Poles. Previously, there was even a union with Lithuania. Lithuania should be "Polish".
March 11, 1938 at the Lithuanian-Polish demarcation line "was found dead Polish soldier." March 13 Poland puts the responsibility for the murder of the Polish soldier in the Lithuanian authorities. March 15, 1938 in Warsaw and Vilna anti-Lithuanian Polish fascists organized a demonstration under the slogan "Forward to Kovno!" (Kovno - it's an old Russian name of Kaunas, Kowno, - in Polish, Kaunas - the then capital of Lithuania). March 17 Poland presents an ultimatum to Lithuania with the requirement to conclude a Convention, which guarantees the rights of Poles in Lithuania. As well as demanding the repeal of the Lithuanian section of the Constitution, which proclaims Vilna (Vilnius), the capital of Lithuania. Lithuania, Poland stated that if she refuses to meet its demands within 24 hours, it will be introduced in Lithuania Polish army. By this time the one hundred thousandth the Polish army was already near the Polish-Lithuanian border.
But on the evening of March 16 Commissar for Foreign Affairs Maxim Litvinov invites to his Polish ambassador in Moscow, B. Grzybowski and says to him that the Soviet Union is interested in the resolution of the Polish-Lithuanian dispute peacefully. Poland did not need to encroach on the independence of Lithuania. If Poland does not listen, Moscow denounced the Polish-Soviet non-aggression pact, and reserves the freedom of action.
Not risking contact with the Soviet Union, Poland was limited to a small solution of the problem - led Lithuania to restore diplomatic relations with it.
Now remember Back in late 1928, Pilsudski, said: "Czechoslovakia - an artificial creation, a piece of land which I would call Niemandsland - no man's land ...". In response, Edward Benes, Minister of Foreign Affairs, and later president of Czechoslovakia, said: "From Poland Czechoslovakia can not communicate because it is the Balkans of Central Europe ... In the end, Poland - State for the season."
Where the former Slavic unity?
Hitler was very pleased. You're both Slavic fools, Poland and Czechoslovakia, both of you - "for a season!" Hitler is successfully expanding into Germany. Hitler had already seized the Rhineland, seized Austria. He worked quickly and collects the German people and the German ground in one piece. Now you have to use the discord between the Slavs and the stupid folly of England and France, together with a silly but greedy Poland, Czechoslovakia break.
In 1938 he began regular consultations between Berlin and Warsaw on Chehslavakii. The military authorities in Germany and Poland began to prepare the revolt of the Germans and the Poles in Czechoslovakia. In early 1938, in Cieszyn region arises "Union of Poles", organized on the model of the Nazi Party Sudetonemetskoy Geynleyna. From Warsaw receives an order that "the Union of Poles' Geynleynom coordinate with all of his actions against the Czech government. In September, the Poles are constantly organize provocations. Polish planes frequently violate the borders of Czechoslovakia, Polish troops cross the border and throw grenades border barracks, railway station ... The Soviet government clearly expressed its disapproval of the actions of Poland. In the newspaper "Pravda" (1938. September 27. № 267) appears, for example, an article on the topic "The unrestrained arrogance Polish fascists." But Poland does not pay attention to the opinion of Stalin, all the attention of Poland at how quickly tear off and swallow a tasty piece of Teschen.
And Hitler at that time unfolds propaganda about the persecution of ethnic minorities (Germans in the Sudetenland and the Poles in the Cieszyn region) in Czechoslovakia. "Democracy" is very hard to object on this topic. September 21, 1938 the Polish government has put its territorial claims on Czechoslovakia, which Hitler include in its memorandum Godersbergsky. September 22, Hitler declared arrives in Berlin to British Prime Minister Chamberlain that requires Czechoslovakia and territorial concessions to Poland and Hungary.
So it was, that the iron fact, secret conversations and secret agreement between Hitler and Nazi Poland on the division of Czechoslovakia.
Then Hitler in Munich on the night of 29 to 30 September 1938 an agreement with Britain, France and Italy on the division of Czechoslovakia. England and France sit Czechoslovakia Germany, Poland and Hungary joined them to the wolves. They hope that after Germany, Poland and Hungary, after finished with Czechoslovakia, moved erupted appetite still rush to the Soviet Union.
November 2, 1938 Polish troops invaded Cieszyn region. TěšÃn region annexed by Poland. The value of this little piece of (0, 2 percent of the territory of Poland) is great for the Polish economy. At the end of 1938 connected companies gave nearly 41% of the production of iron and nearly 47% of the steel produced in Poland (Popiolek K. Historia Slaska. Katowice, 1972. S. 644).
Polish propagandists, of course, choking with delight. And Poland is, of course, impudent, wants to capture even more. Although TěšÃn area is very tasty and a slice of a very high-calorie, but it is really very small. Poland wants to swallow more. Why Germany seizes huge chunks, and I, Poland, can not? And Polish troops captured four Slovak village. Poland wants to capture and VÃtkovice steel mills ... But Hitler did not cheat. German Field Marshal Keitel recalled: "Another evening of March 14 (1939), personal regiment of the SS Hitler invaded Moravia-Ostrovsky ledge to advance to secure VÃtkovice steel plants from taking over the Poles."
^ In his memoirs, Churchill wrote that Poland "hyenas eagerly took part in the robbery and destruction of the Czechoslovak state" (W. Churchill, The Second World War. V.1, looming storm. M., 1997. P.163).
Now tell me how they started to fight against fascism?? They came to rob, the Germans got a slap in the face.
Well, then went, of course, the genocide of the Czechs in the Teschen area. Czech General Vehirek wrote: "The Poles mercilessly persecuted Czechs, terrorized layoffs thrown from their homes, confiscated property. Whatever was Czech, destroyed." Czech schools were forbidden and Czech. Even a law prohibiting communication in Czech. Greeting for Czech - a fine of PLN 4 (Then the Czechs at the welcome began to shout - "Four PLN"). "Czech names erased even from the graves, mass grave of soldiers was excavated, and the remains thrown in the trash. Chekhov was beaten in the streets." As a result of the Cieszyn region ran 30,000 5,000 Czechs and Germans.
But, today the U.S. propaganda says that Germany and the Soviet Union, or rather Russia invaded Poland on the poor.After that show the relevance of the topic.
The theme of the march of Hitler and the Poles in the East was in 1939, much in vogue among diplomats and journalists.
Charge d'Affaires in Germany in December, Mr. Astakhov reported in the Foreign Office: "By the conviction correspondents" The Times "and" New York Herald Tribune, "the theme of the Ukraine is now one of the trendiest in Berlin." ("The Year of Crisis 1938-1939." Documents and materials. V.1., Page 144.)
French charge d'J. de Monba reported to Paris: "According to some foreign sources, Hitler's plan for Ukraine is to try to create, if possible, with the help of Poland, which will be offered a kind of condominium, something like the European Manchukuo Guo, delivered in a more or less close vassalage. "
Many wondered what would prefer Hitler. Try to snatch the Ukraine by war or without a major war. Chief Adviser to the UK Government on industry (and trusted political adviser Chamberlain), Sir Horace Wilson told the Soviet ambassador Ivan Maisky: "Hitler took today as the next step punch line to the east, in the direction of Ukraine ... He expects to call in the Ukraine a large separatist movement and play this card in about the same spirit as was played Czechoslovak card. Will again be brought to bear the slogan "self-determination". In this regard Hitler expects to Ukraine without a major war. "
Turned his attention to this subject and Stalin. March 10, 1939, speaking to the Report of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) at the XVIII Congress, Stalin said: "The hullabaloo raised by the British, French and American press over the Soviet Ukraine. Of the press until they were hoarse, shouting that the Germans were marching on the Soviet Ukraine that they are now in the hands of the so-called Carpathian Ukraine, numbering about 700,000 people, the Germans were as recently as the spring of this annex the Soviet Ukraine, which has a population of 30 million, to so-called Carpathian Ukraine. It seems that this suspicious noise was intended to raise the ire of the Soviet Union against Germany, to poison the atmosphere and provoke a conflict with Germany for no apparent reason ... "
But Stalin did not take all this talk of Hitler's war against the Soviet Union and Poland only to the provocation. Stalin, it is particularly note also thought likely such a scenario, when Hitler begins to march to the East along with Poland, Hungary and Romania. Stalin and the Soviet military leadership seriously considered Poland as a potential enemy. The strategic plan of defense, composed in March 1938 the Chief of Staff Marshal Shaposhnikov, the most likely opponents are called "fascist bloc - Germany, Italy, supported by Japan and Poland."
Why a joint campaign to the East has not turned out?
Hitler claimed that the blame stupid and greedy Poland. Some historians think so, too. It was not so much asking Hitler to Poland. Besides Danzig at that time was not a Polish city.
But the president of Poland and the Polish government decided: Danzig (in Polish - Gdansk) should belong to Poland. "Polish corridor" to the sea does not give up. No German roads through the "Polish Corridor" is not allowed.
It is clear that Hitler could not start a war with the Russian, having wide free passage of central Germany through the Baltic states to the Soviet Union. In addition to have during the Great War with Germany, Russian, divided "Polish corridor" (with Polish troops!) Into two parts, it was stupid. Poland is not a country that can be trusted. She is always ready to flop in the case of difficulties with the Germans on the eastern front, on the side of England and France in order to get hold of East Prussia and other parts of Germany.
Frankly, Poland didn't really have a choice in the matter. I think Hitler was going to take them down someway or somehow in any case. And unfortunately, Poland was just outgunned and not well situated, geographically, in terms of lack of natural barriers and easy logistical aid from France or Britain.
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