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Old 05-08-2013, 10:22 AM
 
14,781 posts, read 38,450,686 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast View Post
USSR never restrained by brute force, and almost all the republics in the Soviet Union were voluntary
Absolutely correct. Their Soviet appointed governments voluntarily joined the Soviet Union. Same story with Eastern Europe and the Warsaw Pact nations. Their Soviet appointed governments were all too happy to join. After that all it took was a couple of "military interventions" against all of those reformers, western minded intellectuals and liberal communists in Hungary and Czechoslovakia to remind everyone that they really were happy in the socialist workers paradise that had been created for them.
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:33 AM
 
Location: New Mexico
471 posts, read 832,686 times
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Originally Posted by GreyKarast
You know, our multinational country as well as for you. But we have for each other was always the same friendly and equal treatment. We did not have seats for black, yellow and white. And what about the camps all across America for Native Americans (which you call the reservation) We could not get a degree from the University regardless of skin color. How is it possible to formally give a person the status of second-class citizens?


Just have to mention that the reservations in the US are not camps where the Native Americans are held captive or have to stay "or else". They are considered independant nations, in most regards, and get to have their own courts, police forces, elected governments, and more. If you are a Native American, you have full citizenship rights that any other American has, can work anywhere you want, go to school anywhere you want, constitutional freedoms, etc etc etc... Many tribes in America have the good fortune to be in areas with large amounts of natural resources, timber, water, and more. While some tribes are run much better by their elected governments than others, kind of like different countries in the world, no Native American has to stay on their reservation unless they choose to..

Alot different than a camp in Siberia where they say "you have freedom here" only to also state you are thousands of miles from nowhere, the winters are long and brutal, and the surrounding peoples get a bounty to bring " lost citizens" back to the camps..
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:21 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
87,505 posts, read 81,095,768 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast View Post
Equality of people in America and the Soviet Union in the 50th year.
Ask Americans - Which country has the most free and equal for all people, many of them will tell America. But knowing the history of American democracy, I can safely say the Soviet Union. In the Soviet Union, all people regardless of race and nationality were truly equal.
In America, there were places for white and colored and doge in the constitution at the state level fixed-called second-class citizens (this naturally applies today are people of color)
What "50th year"? What do you mean? Please clarify.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:26 PM
 
11,108 posts, read 10,985,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast View Post
Equality of people in America and the Soviet Union in the 50th year.
Ask Americans - Which country has the most free and equal for all people, many of them will tell America. But knowing the history of American democracy, I can safely say the Soviet Union. In the Soviet Union, all people regardless of race and nationality were truly equal.
In America, there were places for white and colored and doge in the constitution at the state level fixed-called second-class citizens (this naturally applies today are people of color)
The Russians are so loving and accepting that's why the Chechens love you all so much.
and the Armenians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Georgians, Ukrainians, etc. Choose to stay in the Soviet Union.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:31 PM
 
42,404 posts, read 26,400,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I am not going to comment on this discussion, because I find it hopeless to begin with, but I will comment on your last statement.
The reason that different ethnicites "bolted away," was because their ruling elite was hoping that they'd get better profits for their own pockets, if they deal directly with the West, rather than being subjected to a common union rule. ( And that goes to Russian communist nomenclatura first of all.) The West - namely the United States were feeding this sentiment as much as they could. They were VERY interested in the dissipation of the Soviet Union.
As for the average citizens of the country, the citizens of different republics - they didn't want to go separate ways at all. There was all-Union referendum held on the 17th of March 1991, ( the only such all-union referendum through the whole history of the Soviet Union,) where people voted for keeping the union of the republics.
You can see the results of the vote here - in the last table; colored green are "yes" votes.

Всесоюзный референдум о сохранении СССÐ* — Википедия

The only exception there were the republics that refused to even participate in such referendum; Baltic countries that wanted to go their separate way ( for understandable reasons, since they were occupied since before the war, ) Georgia, Armenia and Moldova. These republics refused to set the referendum commisions to begin with and refused to participate in voting.
So basically the overwhelming vote of theSoviet people was "yes" to keep the Union, but Yeltzin ( already having American advisers sitting in Kremlin) came up with decision to dissipate Soviet Union actually AGAINST people's vote.
These are historical facts, that are not well-known in the West, so I don't blame you for not knowing them. Of course you'd get a very different picture while dealing with ( then) recent immigrants from the Soviet Union to the US, particularly if they were Russian Jews.
The Soviet Union no longer exists. And when it did, it may not have had second-class citizens based on race, but it did have second-class citizens based on nationality. Ask any Pole.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:14 PM
 
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I think he's making a good point. The USSR in its 50th year (1967, I think?) was definitely a more egalitarian place than the US in 1833. Of course the USSR became a country much more recently than the US though so it's not totally fair, but I think if it were around today it would actually be a better place than the CIS republics are now.
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Old 05-09-2013, 04:20 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
What "50th year"? What do you mean? Please clarify.
It's a bad Google translation of "в 50-x годах", meaning "in the 1950s."

It's a popular misconception among Communists and their sympathizers that blacks in 1950s America were worse off than anyone in the USSR or its satellites. As if the inability of some (not all) blacks to vote was somehow worse than the complete nonexistence of more than one party to vote for. As if segregation at lunch counters was a greater crime against humanity than the segregation of so many Jews and other "enemies of the people" into labor camps.
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:03 PM
 
2,096 posts, read 4,150,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Absolutely correct. Their Soviet appointed governments voluntarily joined the Soviet Union. Same story with Eastern Europe and the Warsaw Pact nations. Their Soviet appointed governments were all too happy to join. After that all it took was a couple of "military interventions" against all of those reformers, western minded intellectuals and liberal communists in Hungary and Czechoslovakia to remind everyone that they really were happy in the socialist workers paradise that had been created for them.
The only republics that were taken over forcibly I believe are the Baltic states and East Germany. Maybe Poland as well.
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:08 PM
 
18,978 posts, read 15,830,675 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
The Soviet Union no longer exists. And when it did, it may not have had second-class citizens based on race, but it did have second-class citizens based on nationality. Ask any Pole.
Again - you are talking about Stalin's times, and it had nothing to do with ethnicity or nationality and everything to do with politics; since Stalin was constantly paranoid, he deemed some people less trustworthy than other. ( The best analogue would be probably the Japanese in the US during the WWII.)
Younger generation in the S.U wouldn't know about these things (I am talking Brezhnev's generation,) and GreyKarast is even younger.
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belmont22 View Post
The only republics that were taken over forcibly I believe are the Baltic states and East Germany. Maybe Poland as well.
East Germany was never one of the republics in the USSR; it was a satellite state, sorry.
The Baltic states however were taken forcibly before the war. Stalin basically claimed back the old territories of Russian empire before the WWII.
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