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The terms 'real' and 'perceived' are ringers, and hard to pin down. A few years ago the war against terror was referred to as the so-called war against terror by certain parties. Those days are gone, but the term 'war against terror' is almost never used. It was kind of a hokey term, anyway, but I can't think of a good replacement. You know, sounds like 'war against poverty'; 'war against drugs'; just doesn't sound like an event where people get killed, which is what it is.
Lives are at stake in this counter-terrorism effort that will never end. And terrorists will hide behind our right to privacy laws if we let them. This sort of thing could never have been envisioned by the men who wrote the 'self evident' phrase.
If we forsake the rights and freedoms that define the nation in order to achieve a slight increase in our security, then the terrorists have already won. Everytime we hack away at our freedoms, we hand the terrorists another victory.
While I completely agree with the idiocy of terms like "War on X" I also take great amusement in calling ti the PATRIOT Act. I'm not sure how patriotic it is to sell out basic civil rights over what is in all reality a very minor threat.
Still though, we are treading into politics here. The point of the OP was to highlight that this sort of thing has happened since the beginning of time and was always justified within its era.
So, our self-evident truths and inalienable rights only apply during peace time? The point being that the government from the time of the founders on has found occasion to blatantly violate the civil rights of Americans in the interest of national security against both real and perceived threats.
Oh I agree with and you are of course right. Over the past 200+ years, the United States Government has a number of times restricted some civil rights in the name of National Security. But you must remember this is been over a long period of time and usually during a war and usually of short term duration.
Probably most if not all of these civil rights violations were unnecessary and counter-productive. But we should also remember to look at the perspective of the people of the time.
For instance, we know that the Alien and Sedition Act of 1798 (during the Quasi-War with France) was unnecessary and probably counter-productive. But to John Adams, who saw how bitterly divided the American public was by the French Revolution into Pro-French and Pro-British factions, he saw it as a necessary evil.
One thing I was trying to get across, if say the Americans were cutting down on press freedoms during WW1, what do you think the other Democracies, like the British and the French were doing, (not to mention the non-Democracies)? And the British not only restricted information they even had government bureaus to spread false information and propaganda http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministr...United_Kingdom) .
And that is my point, its not a book about how Democracies sometimes restrict their freedoms, once again its how the big old bad horrible United States has restricted freedoms. I know it is PC to attack America right now, but frankly I am getting tired of it.
Oh I agree with and you are of course right. Over the past 200+ years, the United States Government has a number of times restricted some civil rights in the name of National Security. But you must remember this is been over a long period of time and usually during a war and usually of short term duration.
Probably most if not all of these civil rights violations were unnecessary and counter-productive. But we should also remember to look at the perspective of the people of the time.
For instance, we know that the Alien and Sedition Act of 1798 (during the Quasi-War with France) was unnecessary and probably counter-productive. But to John Adams, who saw how bitterly divided the American public was by the French Revolution into Pro-French and Pro-British factions, he saw it as a necessary evil.
One thing I was trying to get across, if say the Americans were cutting down on press freedoms during WW1, what do you think the other Democracies, like the British and the French were doing, (not to mention the non-Democracies)? And the British not only restricted information they even had government bureaus to spread false information and propaganda http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministr...United_Kingdom) .
And that is my point, its not a book about how Democracies sometimes restrict their freedoms, once again its how the big old bad horrible United States has restricted freedoms. I know it is PC to attack America right now, but frankly I am getting tired of it.
I'm not an America basher, but I don't take umbrage at the idea of taking a critical look at some of our past actions and trying to learn from those mistakes. Like you said, in most cases, the times we have trampled the constitution for what seemed "necessary" often were proven to be completely useless and counter-productive. Yet, we do it over and over again.
I'm not an America basher, but I don't take umbrage at the idea of taking a critical look at some of our past actions and trying to learn from those mistakes. Like you said, in most cases, the times we have trampled the constitution for what seemed "necessary" often were proven to be completely useless and counter-productive. Yet, we do it over and over again.
Shouldn't we consider the fact that even though it (constitution trampling) has been done over and over, we have always recovered? Lincoln; Jackson; Wilson; John Adams, even; those Presidents all violated the provisions of the document, and yet here we still are. Maybe a violation of sorts is forgivable; after all, no one has been imprisoned unfairly.
I say, "Gotcha! No big deal. Here's a warning ticket. Don't do it again."
I have evolved politically over the years and am now glad that our Government is listening and watching, it is about time we feel like we just might be on top of things.
I also believe that the person who leaked the info is guilty of treason and hopefully will be dealt with in the professional quiet manner of which we once were capable of before we got wimpy! ..... or at least given a bad reference when he applies for a new job!!
I have evolved politically over the years and am now glad that our Government is listening and watching, it is about time we feel like we just might be on top of things.
I also believe that the person who leaked the info is guilty of treason and hopefully will be dealt with in the professional quiet manner of which we once were capable of before we got wimpy! ..... or at least given a bad reference when he applies for a new job!!
He's in Hong Kong still I think. He will probably defect to China - and if you want to see a culture that spy's on their citizens to an extreme (and visiting businessmen, of which I am personally familiar with) - that would be China, Peoples Republic Of.
Next year he will be set up in a Bejing Party Office with a job recording each time a Chinese citizen enters "free tibet" in google.
Shouldn't we consider the fact that even though it (constitution trampling) has been done over and over, we have always recovered? Lincoln; Jackson; Wilson; John Adams, even; those Presidents all violated the provisions of the document, and yet here we still are.
In some matters I find myself becoming far more conservative than in the radical days of my youth. Back in the Vietnam era, I generally hated officers but over the last three decades have come to appreciate that fact that of all the world's militaries it is one of the few that has consistently subjugated itself to civilian authority. Of all the institutions within the federal government I credit the officer corps of the U.S. military as being above all others in preserving our freedoms.
He's in Hong Kong still I think. He will probably defect to China - and if you want to see a culture that spy's on their citizens to an extreme (and visiting businessmen, of which I am personally familiar with) - that would be China, Peoples Republic Of.
Next year he will be set up in a Bejing Party Office with a job recording each time a Chinese citizen enters "free tibet" in google.
The guy's an idiot. The press is busy trying to convince us that he is some sort of hero, and that we should all be outraged because "Big Brother is watching". Jeez. The book "1984" is setting sales records.
Hopefully, he will disappear into China.
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