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Old 06-16-2013, 11:46 AM
 
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Of these two who would you say was worse and did the most damage to the development of the DR Congo?

I got to thinking about this after watching Anthony Bourdain's show lastnight about the Congo on CNN.
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Old 06-16-2013, 06:19 PM
 
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Mobutu Tse Tse Tseko? Isn't that the name of a fly?
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Old 06-16-2013, 06:25 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Let's not forget that Mobutu was installed by the West (US, mainly) to replace the leftist and democratically-elected Patrice Lumumba. Your tax dollars (or your grandparents' tax dollars) at work.
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Old 06-16-2013, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Leopold was what you'd get if Jay Gould had been given absolute power over a nation. Mobotu was what you'd get if John Gotti had been given absolute power over a nation. The former enriches himself by enslaving and expoiting you, the latter allows you the dignity of earning your own money, and then he steals it from you. You're screwed either way, but probably better off under Gotti.
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Old 06-16-2013, 07:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Let's not forget that Mobutu was installed by the West (US, mainly) to replace the leftist and democratically-elected Patrice Lumumba.
Well sort of. While I have no disagreement in principle in point of fact the involvement of the CIA was the direct result of Belgian resistance to genuine independence. It was the exclusive control of the Belgian armed forces 5 July 1960 mutiny, it was the unilateral decision of Belgium to dispatch paratroopers to the Congo that led Lumumba to ask for Soviet intervention which led to the subsequent entrance of the CIA, it was Belgian industrialist and mining interest that were behind the secession of Katanga province back by paid mercenaries from Europe, South Africa, and Rhodesia, along with 6,000 Belgian troops that further sank the Congo into Chaos giving even more credibility to the U.S. and Belgian to further destabilize the newly formed Congolese government. So let's not leave the U.S. on the hook without putting Belgium in the proper neo-colonial perspective.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:34 PM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
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Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Let's not forget that Mobutu was installed by the West (US, mainly) to replace the leftist and democratically-elected Patrice Lumumba. Your tax dollars (or your grandparents' tax dollars) at work.
Right or wrong, and I suppose you are right, it really has nothing to do with a complete understanding of the history of Congo. Nothing, I believe, comes close to Leopold's exploitation of this area. HM Stanley (Dr Livingston, I presume) was the first white man to set foot on much of the area. His story is best learned by reading Into Africa: The Epic Adventures of Stanley and Livingston. King Leopold's Ghost will round out your knowledge.

Those two books will take you much further into history than your knee jerk reaction that America is always the most evil entity around and is always the source of everyone's ills.
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Old 06-18-2013, 06:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Listener2307 View Post
Those two books will take you much further into history than your knee jerk reaction that America is always the most evil entity around and is always the source of everyone's ills.
While I made a point of laying out Belgium's role in Congo, that doesn't let the U.S. off the hook by a long shot. Anyone, who doesn't recognize the evil entity that the U.S. was throughout the 50's, 60's and 70's in Africa, Central and South America is a fool or in total denial because the history is clear, and undeniable... knees not withstanding.
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Old 06-18-2013, 07:37 PM
 
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Leopold genocided half the population and chopped of arms and limbs of almost everyone.

Mobutu was just a thief plain and simple.

But I agree with the other posters, Mobutu was a hand picked theif by America, they did not want Lumumba because he was a good and competent leader for the congo. And this is the problem over africa. USA usually kills the competent leaders and installs puppet with megalomania who will co-operate. If you run a resource rich country like congo, most competent leaders would
1. Increase taxes on foreign firms
2. Kick out foreign firms and replace them with local ones to capture the profit
3. restrict the export of crucial resources to increase the price

If you are america and need congolese rubber or uranium or cadminium, you can't have that, kill the leader and install your puppet.

Ovcatto is right and gives an accurate picture of the historical context.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:39 PM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
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The human cost of the Congo rubber saga is as difficult to calculate as the financial but it was certainly high. There is general agreement that the population of the Congo in the 1880’s was around 25,000,000. In 1911 the official figure was put at 8,500,000, 7,700,000 in 1923 and 8 – 10,000,000 in the mid 1930’s. Making due allowance for inaccuracies in the 1880’s figure there seems to be no reason to doubt that 10 - 15,000,000 natives ‘vanished’ in the Congo during Leopold’s rubber-grabbing years. Not all this can be laid at the door of rubber or, indeed, at the door of Leopold himself, for during this period Africa was swept by a devastating plague of sleeping sickness. Secret flight was an option but this was against the Concession Company’s ‘law’ and it was not easy, as the death toll incurred by native porters during many explorations have shown. The birth rate of native Congolese fell substantially in the first decade of the 19th century and this is generally ascribed to the falling numbers of young indigenous males, murdered for failing to meet their target quotas of rubber. However, the concurrent rape of the female hostages should have compensated for this so the reasons must be more complex. One still has to ask how this should be factored into any calculations regarding lives ‘lost’ during this period.
Untitled Document

I may be mistaken, but I don't think Leopold himself never set foot in Congo. In any event the 10 - 15,000,000 missing people seem to have disappeared on his watch.
I would think Mobutu would be hard pressed to match that figure.

According to several sources, Congo suffers on today. Here's an interesting article dealing with cellphone batteries. Presumably, it applies to electric car batteries, too, but I don't really know. There is nothing free:
http://http://sfbayview.com/2008/con...-and-diamonds/
Quote:
The diamond you wear on your finger and minerals in your cell phone, laptop or PlayStation are likely to have come from Katanga Province in the DRC. This region’s vast mineral and natural resources include cobalt, copper, cadmium, industrial and gem diamonds, gold, silver, zinc, manganese, tin, germanium, uranium, radium, bauxite, iron ore, coal, niobium, timber, cassiterite and coltan. They are being mined in what amounts to an international plundering of this troubled country’s valuable resources.
One particular mineral found in the DRC, coltan, is in high demand in its refined form, tantalum, for use in consumer electronics. The increased demand for coltan has created a situation similar to the one usually associated with “conflict diamonds,” where profits are being used to fund military actions...........
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by scaramouchebluez View Post

But I agree with the other posters, Mobutu was a hand picked theif by America, they did not want Lumumba because he was a good and competent leader for the congo. And this is the problem over africa. USA usually kills the competent leaders and installs puppet with megalomania who will co-operate. If you run a resource rich country like congo, most competent leaders would...
It's not that simple. First we don't know what type of leader Patrice Lumumba would have made. But had he gone the socialist route of Nkrumah,Nyerere and Sekou Toure I'd predict we would have seen something similar to the problems of those countries. Those African leaders implemented one party states and over-regulated socialist economies that did a lot of damage to their country's development.

Botswana is rich is diamonds and their first president Seretse Khama wasn't overthrown by any CIA backed coup. He went in a more market direction and Botswana has been black Africa's best economy. So I think had Lumumba gone in the direction of Nkrumah then his Congo would have experianced similar problems Ghana did under Nkrumah. Had he gone in the direction of Seretse Khama of Botswana then maybe the Congo would be in a more developed state.
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