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Old 07-15-2013, 11:04 PM
 
21,426 posts, read 10,507,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
Well, having watched Braveheart several times (that and Shakespeare's Richard III and Macbeth were the sum total of my "education" on English Kings), I'd say Edward Longshanks (whichever Edward he was) was a real ****. And it looks like he let Scotland slip away and gain their freedom, even as both he and Mel Gibson died.

And George III let the opportunity for the richest continent on the face of the Earth, more than ten times the size of England, slip away thru gross mismanagement when they were literally begging to be kept part of England... until they finally had enough of it, a few years before July 4, 1776. Some people say he was literally crazy. I'm tempted to believe it.

My $.02, worth twice what you paid for it.
Please don't confuse entertainment with history.
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,652 posts, read 60,572,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
You do need to quanity "worst". For instance, even if you think Richard III was innocent of killing his nephews, he was still a rather unseemly character with a river of blood running from his hands. However, he wasn't a "bad" king in terms of running the country.

Generally the guy at the top of the list of overall "worst" for running the country is Edward II who had one of the most convoluted and ineffectual rules in history. That is until his wife overthrew him and put their son on the throne. Though since Edward III was a minor, his mother Isabella and her lover Roger Mortimer ruled in his stead. They were almost as bad as Edward II...almost.

Edward VIII often makes these lists as he is the one who came closest to ending the entire monarchy. Had he not abdicated in favor of his brother George VI, there is a good chance the monarchy would have collapsed, if not in the UK, certainly in the Commonwealth.

I'm not even sure how Henry VIII makes the list (James II, Charles I, John, Henry VI, Stephen, Harold II, George III and George IV...all of them before Henry VIII). From all accounts Henry VIII was a pretty good king...just a bad husband. Though, his daughter Mary I could certainly be a contender if we included queens.
WHAT???? Henry VIII threw much of his country into economic disarray by decimating the abbeys and giving them to noblemen for private use. He kept the populace in fear by his ever shifting religious views and alliances. He ordered the executions of tens of thousands of his subjects for their political and religious beliefs and practices. He was a horrible husband, father, and king.
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:13 AM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,582,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
WHAT???? Henry VIII threw much of his country into economic disarray by decimating the abbeys and giving them to noblemen for private use. He kept the populace in fear by his ever shifting religious views and alliances. He ordered the executions of tens of thousands of his subjects for their political and religious beliefs and practices. He was a horrible husband, father, and king.
The economic issues were caused by inflation that resulted from the debasement of the currency to balance the revenue and expenditures of the crown. The Abbey's fell into the Crown Holdings and provided a very necessary source of income for the crown. Henry VIII inherited a generous fortune and stable economy...spent it...and then went about righting the economic ship.

I would quote A.F. Pollard...

"...laud him as the king and statesman who, whatever his personal failings, led England down the road to parliamentary democracy and empire".

Among Henry VIII's achievements...laid the foundation for the Royal Navy which allowed Elizabeth to defeat the Armada and England to establish colonies, created the Church of England, was a large patron of the arts and considered to be the man who brought the Renaissance to England, established the Kingdom of Ireland, overhauled the government including the criminal, legal and tax code, promoted Parliament as a needed instrument of the crown lending legitimacy to the body, had the Bible translated into English and embarked on one of the largest building programs in Engish history.

In some cases it is the results of his actions that were the most influential. First would be Elizabeth I who along with Henry VIII and Victoria is often considered a contender for the title of "Greatest English Monarch". After that we have Henry's Protestant England that becomes the safe haven for scientists and engineers who wish to escape the persecution of the Catholic Church. It has been argued that Henry's Reformation led to an intellectual revoluion by attracting so many Renaissance and progressive minds to England. This would ulimately result in the foundation of Empire and the Industrial Revolution.

If you don't believe me, well the British often rank him in the top three. In this article historian Alison Weir takes up the cause of "Great Harry" and goes so far as to intone that without Henry VIII, modern England wouldn't exist...

BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | England's greatest monarch is...

Though, I can understand your issue with him given your name and all, lol.
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,652 posts, read 60,572,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post


BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | England's greatest monarch is...

Quote:
The economic issues were caused by inflation that resulted from the debasement of the currency to balance the revenue and expenditures of the crown.
AKA Henry VIII and his extravagant court, as well as his political maneuvering largely for personal reasons, and his legal issues.

Though, I can understand your issue with him given your name and all, lol.
Quote:
The Abbey's fell into the Crown Holdings and provided a very necessary source of income for the crown. Henry VIII inherited a generous fortune and stable economy...spent it...and then went about righting the economic ship.
In other words, stealing from the abbeys and the Church. That's about as morally sound as me inheriting my family land, gambling away my fortune, and then stealing to pay my debts - but hey, they're paid, right? So everyone should be happy!

Quote:
I would quote A.F. Pollard...

"...laud him as the king and statesman who, whatever his personal failings, led England down the road to parliamentary democracy and empire".
The end justifies the means, huh?

"Bloody Mary" had about 300 people put to death during her reign. Henry VIII had tens of thousands of people executed. I'm unimpressed with his "democratic leanings."

Quote:
Among Henry VIII's achievements...laid the foundation for the Royal Navy which allowed Elizabeth to defeat the Armada and England to establish colonies,
Don't steal Liz I's thunder! It was technology developed via her support during her reign that enabled the English fleet to carry the massive guns which were used to defeat the Spanish Armada and which revolutionized the Royal Navy's scope and power.

Quote:
created the Church of England,
...And you'd be hard pressed to find less noble reasons for forming a church. Let's just say he didn't have the spiritual needs of his constituents in mind when he broke from Rome. Nor did he have the welfare of communities in mind when he confiscated the abbeys and monasteries.

Quote:
was a large patron of the arts and considered to be the man who brought the Renaissance to England,
LOL I would have ranked Sir Thomas More far above Henry VIII when it comes to the definition of a Renaissance Man.

Quote:
established the Kingdom of Ireland, overhauled the government including the criminal, legal and tax code, promoted Parliament as a needed instrument of the crown lending legitimacy to the body,
Once again - not in order to empower his constituents. His earlier years showed promise, but as he aged, he became a tyrant, a despot, and disagreeing with him would often find one with one's head separated from one's body.

Quote:
had the Bible translated into English
Right - three years after he had Tyndale executed for doing the very same thing. But of course, by then, Henry sort of HAD to commission that work, considering that his new church, with him as the exalted head, couldn't actually use those Popish bibles, now, could they?

Quote:
and embarked on one of the largest building programs in Engish history.
...Nearly bankrupting his realm in the process - thank goodness for all that lovely property he could confiscate at whim.

Quote:
In some cases it is the results of his actions that were the most influential. First would be Elizabeth I who along with Henry VIII and Victoria is often considered a contender for the title of "Greatest English Monarch".
It's just my personal opinion, but I believe that Elizabeth I earned the title of "Greatest English Monarch," but her accomplishments were more in SPITE of her father's behavior toward her, not because of it.

Quote:
After that we have Henry's Protestant England that becomes the safe haven for scientists and engineers who wish to escape the persecution of the Catholic Church.
Tread gently around him though - about 72,000 people were executed during his reign. I wouldn't say his kingdom was much of a "safe haven" generally speaking.

Quote:
It has been argued that Henry's Reformation led to an intellectual revoluion by attracting so many Renaissance and progressive minds to England.
It hasn't been SUCCESSFULLY argued, in my opinion. He put some of the finest brains in England on the block.

Quote:
If you don't believe me, well the British often rank him in the top three.
They also often rank him as one of the most reviled rulers in their history. In fact, he recently was voted THE WORST monarch in English history in a BBC poll.
BBC - Today

Quote:
In this article historian Alison Weir takes up the cause of "Great Harry" and goes so far as to intone that without Henry VIII, modern England wouldn't exist...
Well, I've read enough of Alison Weir's works to know that she considers Henry VIII to be a vile, evil despot - and I think she's spot on.

Henry VIII held great promise in his youth - he was physically fit and agile, he was intelligent and very well educated, an eloquent writer with a strong grasp of philosophy and theology, a decent song writer, handsome and charming.

However, he did not fulfill the promises of his youth and became not only thoroughly degenerate, I believe that in the end, he was quite pathetic.
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Old 07-20-2013, 06:44 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,652 posts, read 60,572,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post

Though, I can understand your issue with him given your name and all, lol.
Hey, congrats for catching that, by the way. You wouldn't believe how many people on the forums think I took this name after a character in The Hobbit series.
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Old 07-22-2013, 09:27 AM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,582,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Well, I've read enough of Alison Weir's works to know that she considers Henry VIII to be a vile, evil despot - and I think she's spot on.

Henry VIII held great promise in his youth - he was physically fit and agile, he was intelligent and very well educated, an eloquent writer with a strong grasp of philosophy and theology, a decent song writer, handsome and charming.

However, he did not fulfill the promises of his youth and became not only thoroughly degenerate, I believe that in the end, he was quite pathetic.
I think your statement of "ends justifying the means" is the approach I was taking. His reign is often depicted as pivotal in the creation of the modern English state. Obviously he has a very bipolar legacy as evidenced by the fact we both posted BBC polls with him being considered among "the best" and "the worst". I personally have a higher opinion, but that is based on looking at the course he set England upon and that requires ignoring a lot of the details, lol. Even considering the details I don't feel he deserves consideration as the "worst" monarch in English history, but can agree that he is also perhaps not among the best.

The difficulty with any of these discussions though is the necessity of defining what the "best" or "worst" really means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Hey, congrats for catching that, by the way. You wouldn't believe how many people on the forums think I took this name after a character in The Hobbit series.
lol, it was a little hard to miss when you were explaining to me why I should hate Henry VIII.
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Old 10-08-2016, 07:55 AM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,284,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
Pretty much all of them. It's no wonder that democracy made such progress there.
Quite slowly.
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Old 10-10-2016, 09:03 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,634 posts, read 14,903,529 times
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A rather recent one ... from just before World War 2:

Edward VIII

The bogus "romantic tale" of abdicating for the American divorcee he "loved" notwithstanding, this jerk was ineffectual, lazy, enthralled by luxurious living (and mooching off other rich people) .... but most of all: a secret Nazi sympathizer!

His reign did not last even one year.
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Old 10-12-2016, 03:08 PM
 
Location: London U.K.
2,587 posts, read 1,585,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Park View Post
A rather recent one ... from just before World War 2:

Edward VIII

The bogus "romantic tale" of abdicating for the American divorcee he "loved" notwithstanding, this jerk was ineffectual, lazy, enthralled by luxurious living (and mooching off other rich people) .... but most of all: a secret Nazi sympathizer!

His reign did not last even one year.

I'm not sure if he reigned at all technically, he was declared King on the death of his father, George V, but he was never crowned I believe, abdicating before his coronation rolled around.
I don't know the vagaries of these things, perhaps as the late King's eldest son, his reign commenced when his father died, coronation or no coronation.
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