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Old 07-03-2013, 02:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by high iron View Post
True, but I interpreted the OP's question to mean "when did communism take on the total nature of an existential threat", and it would have to be after Stalin had the A Bomb.
Your interpretation was correct just the date of your starting point is in error. Stalin nor the atomic bomb were the impetus for passage of the sedition act, the establish of an domestic intelligence/enforcement agency to suppress socialist and communist. Nor did Stalin or the atomic bomb create the atmosphere of fear and repression as typified by the Palmer raids. The "Cold War" certainly wasn't the beginning just a new phase in the conflict.
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:03 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red4ce View Post
From the end of World War 2 until the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and to some extent even today, communism was viewed as the greatest threat to America and the values it stood for. What I would like to know is, when exactly did America's boogeyman switch from nazism/fascism to communism?
When three events happened. All seemed to happen close to the same time, at least the same span of years.

1.) The rest of the world defeated Naziism and pounded its practitioners into the ground, at times literally.
2.) The rest of the world came to truly believe Naziism was a horrific threat to mankind.
3.) The bad effects of Socialism/communism, along with its tendency to look deceptively attractive to people who weren't paying much attention, became clear to those who were paying attention.

Event 1 happened roughly from 1939-1945.
Event 2 happened roughly from the mid-1920s thru maybe 1943.
Event 3 happened very roughly from the mid-1920s through the 1950s.
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Aloverton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Nice theory, but it doesn't reflect reality. If Communism was demonized so early, why did US industrialists like Henry Ford and Armand Hammar go to Russia to help it rebuild its economy after WWI?
I assume they had a profit motive, but I do not know the actual answer. However... if it wasn't demonized so early, why did we send US troops to support the Anglo-French intervention in Churchill's effort to 'strangle the Bolshevik state'? My read of those times is that the US was thoroughly anti-Bolshevik (identified with communism) and quite alarmed at labor trouble which hinted that the far left influence might grow into something very counter to the national fabric of the times.
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:09 PM
Status: "Trump - excepting Jorgensen, the least of multiple evils" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Greg your argument is more befitting of the P&C forum not the History forum. Socialist of all stripes presented American industrialist with the first real threat to their power and neither side shied away from resorting to violence. Between the bombings, terrorism and militant strikes by unionist and the repression by private armies like the Pinkertons and backed by state militias the period between 1890 and 1920 was one the most violent eras in the history of organized labor and presented an existential threat to American capitalism long before the Soviet Union emerged as a global power at the end of WWII.
Your argument depicts "capitalism" as some sort of organized conspiracy, when in fact "capitalism", perhaps better described as the workings of an open economy, is nothng more than the sum total of the actions and efforts of all producers and cosumers, large and small.

Granted, the effects of technology tend to have a "multiplier effect" on those sectors where large amounts of capital are concentrated. But the negative features of this allow for the emergence of alternatives -- consider, for example, Walmart and Amazon, or entirely new players via the internet.

"Capitalism" or entrepreneurship, becomes corrupt only when it is harnessed to the power of the state -- the legally-recognized monopoly on the ability to coerce. Yet the same people who whine loud and long at the supposed power of Trilateralists, Bilderbergers, etc, sometimes have no reservations whatsoever when this power is in the hands of supposedly-enlightened socialists, simplistic would-be environmental gurus, or others whom they view favorably.

Acton said it best over a century ago -- "Power Corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely."

The process will go on,and there will be "victims"; consider, for example, the emergence of the "Orwellian workplce" when the benefits of technology backfired in the form of cyber-micromanagement. But just af Al Smith postulated that There are no ills of democracy that can't be cured with more democracy" -- the answer hwe is to curb collective power at all strata of society, not to increase it in the pursuit of some "common good" which has no more chance of materializing than Marx' promised "whithering away of the state".
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Old 07-03-2013, 08:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
Your argument depicts "capitalism" as some sort of organized conspiracy, when in fact "capitalism", perhaps better described as the workings of an open economy, is nothng more than the sum total of the actions and efforts of all producers and cosumers, large and small.
Don't try to read a political subtext where none exists, so can we stay on topic?
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red4ce View Post
From the end of World War 2 until the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and to some extent even today, communism was viewed as the greatest threat to America and the values it stood for. What I would like to know is, when exactly did America's boogeyman switch from nazism/fascism to communism? As in, was there a particular moment or event when the collective American public conscience suddenly feared the Red menace? Was it Sputnik? The detonation of the Soviets' first nuclear bomb? Before WWII even ended? Inquiring minds would like to know.
Re: At what point did Communism become public enemy #1?

From the day it was born, lol.
The ideas of Communism is a direct threat to the very existence of the US, its very foundation.
And Russia harbors those "communist ideas" on a much deeper level than the world saw during Soviet days.
One should look into the life of Russian peasantry in pre-Soviet times, the rules of collective farming and responsibilities, that you wouldn't find anywhere else in Europe. Same goes to the very limited ownership of "private property" - the way Russian peasants ( who comprised 80-85% of the whole population) lived.
Unlike in the US, historically the advantages of ownership of private property benefited only tiny percentage of Russian population; that's how it was before the revolution and that's what happened in the same manner after the fall of Communism. Obviously, the country that benefits the most from the ideas of private property ( and power of money in general) will be always threatened by a country that benefits the least from such system, and population of which doesn't trust in kind of justice that money bring.

These are the true roots of Communism in Russia ( had to look this material up for a Russian forum,) so I might as well post it here, because it gives a good picture why Russia historically differs so much from the US in this respect (talking about private property.)


"Institutional settings of Russian agriculture after the emancipation: the commune.

The peasant commune dominated the institutional landscape of the Russian village after the
abolishment of serfdom in 1861. The reform empowered the commune with broad decision-
making authority over local issues both political and economic ones; the commune had to
replace the serf-owner as the source of power in the village. In the economic sphere, in
particular, the commune regulated the majority of peasants’ agricultural activities under the
system of open fields. Each household cultivated a number of separate and scattered small strips,
onto which the peasant land was divided, and accordingly had to coordinate their activities with
their neighbors, i.e. the usage rights in land was limited under the commune system.
Peasants’ transfer and exclusion rights in land varied with the commune type. They were
very limited in repartition (peredel’naya) communes which composed about eighty percent of all
communes. Family ownership and private property in land did not exist in repartition communes
because of the periodical redistribution of allotments between commune members. Accordingly,
peasants could not sell, lease, mortgage or transfer legally their strips under communal tenure
and periodical redistributions undertaken by the decision of the commune majority limited their
exclusion rights in land. In addition, the commune regulated peasant mobility and accordingly
the supply of labor because of mutual responsibility for tax payments. Seasonal workers and all
peasants who wished to temporarily leave their native areas had to get passports from local
communal authorities. In hereditary (podvornaya) communes, there were no repartitions and
peasants enjoyed full exclusion rights in land. They also had better land transfer rights but still limited."

http://www.ggdc.nl/projects/conferenceqeh/markevich.pdf

Now compare that to the ideas that govern ( and always governed) the American society
That's why the "far left" ideas are always alive and well in Russia, today including, but not in the US.

It's all ( oh well) so biblical I suppose))))
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Nice theory, but it doesn't reflect reality. If Communism was demonized so early, why did US industrialists like Henry Ford and Armand Hammar go to Russia to help it rebuild its economy after WWI?
Because the US economy wasn't doing very well back in those days I suppose and capital is always looking for the new opportunities for investment - that's number one, and number two - Soviet society was a big new experiment, quite a few Westerners were fascinated by it; some of them as we know it paid with their lives being sucked by the vortex of Soviet purges. The "dark side of the Moon" you know.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:26 PM
Status: "Trump - excepting Jorgensen, the least of multiple evils" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
13,851 posts, read 8,498,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Don't try to read a political subtext where none exists, so can we stay on topic?
How can a defense o the unettered flow of both human opinion and commerce (vs. the two poles of totalitarianism) be viewed as partsan politics???
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:31 PM
NCN
 
Location: NC/SC Border Patrol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red4ce View Post
From the end of World War 2 until the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and to some extent even today, communism was viewed as the greatest threat to America and the values it stood for. What I would like to know is, when exactly did America's boogeyman switch from nazism/fascism to communism? As in, was there a particular moment or event when the collective American public conscience suddenly feared the Red menace? Was it Sputnik? The detonation of the Soviets' first nuclear bomb? Before WWII even ended? Inquiring minds would like to know.
Communism is exactly the opposite of a free America.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN View Post
Communism is exactly the opposite of a free America.
There is no such thing as "free" anything.
In Soviet Union the control was exercised with the help of ideology, ( i.e. the more you adhere to ideology, the more freedom you have,) in the US it's exercised with the help of money; i.e the more money you have, the more freedom you've got.
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