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Old 07-04-2013, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Colorado
1,969 posts, read 2,092,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_k_k View Post
I assume they had a profit motive, but I do not know the actual answer. However... if it wasn't demonized so early, why did we send US troops to support the Anglo-French intervention in Churchill's effort to 'strangle the Bolshevik state'? My read of those times is that the US was thoroughly anti-Bolshevik (identified with communism) and quite alarmed at labor trouble which hinted that the far left influence might grow into something very counter to the national fabric of the times.
According to my studies, Lenin and co. worked to loosen up the rules in the early 1920's in order to allow for some investment in the Russian economy, thus the Ford investment, but then Stalin and his allies clamped down and started purges after Lenin's death. My Russian studies professor said that Ford employees were stranded in Russia after that happened.
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Colorado
1,969 posts, read 2,092,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Finally you've stepped into my neighborhood.

I would say that 1948-1960's was the zenith of the Red Scare that began in as early as the 1905 with the founding of the International Workers of the World the first socialist labor organization in the U.S. founded by William D. "Big Bill" Haywood, Daniel De Leon, and Eugene V. Debs. and reached its peak in era of WWI when the federal government under Woodrow Wilson declared open warfare on socialist and anarchist movements.

During the war years the Congress passed the Espionage Act of 1917, and the Sedition Act of 1918 directed primarily at Communist and Socialist opposition to the war. The Russian Revolution was seen as an existential threat to the U.S. as Communist and Socialist Parties along with a radicalized labor movement fomented major strikes, such as the Seattle General Strike, the Coal and Steel strikes of 1919 brought fear of Bolshevik revolution in the U.S. Aside from the the two acts against subversion Congress established the Overman Committee, a forerunner to the House UnAmerican Activities Committee to investigate the growing influence of communist and socialist in the U.S. It was also a period where the role of the FBI as the vanguard against the red threat.

It was Attorney General A. Mitchell Palmer that recruited J.Edgar Hoover to head the Justice Departments General Intelligence Unit that along with local law enforcement that would conduct the notorious Palmer Raids to round up " radicals" across the country. Raids that led to the deportation of hundreds of alleged foreign born radicals and the actual ouster of elected members of the New York State Assembly.

During that period socialist like the IWW's Joe Hill was framed for murder and executed, Bill Haywood was subjected to the same but escaped as a result of Clarence Darrow's lawyerly expertise and Eugene Debs was imprisoned on 10 counts of sedition for fomenting opposition to the war, declared by President Wilson to be "traitor to his country." and was disenfranchised for life and sentenced to 10 years in prison.

Frankly the violence and repression mete out to communist and socialist during that period made the McCarthy era seem like meek by comparison.
The book on Debs was a real eye-opener. I'm familiar with the witch-hunts of the 1950s and 60's, McCarthy, Cohn, Nixon, Reagan using it to enhance their careers; but didn't know about the Palmer raids and Wilson earlier. Capitalists really felt threatened they were going to lose their death-grip on the economic wheel.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:30 AM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
31,169 posts, read 68,120,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artisan4 View Post
Capitalists really felt threatened they were going to lose their death-grip on the economic wheel.
Some even used the paranoia to sell paper towels:

Quote:
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At what point did Communism become public enemy #1?-bathroomv.jpg  
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:29 AM
 
18,354 posts, read 15,403,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artisan4 View Post
According to my studies, Lenin and co. worked to loosen up the rules in the early 1920's in order to allow for some investment in the Russian economy, thus the Ford investment, but then Stalin and his allies clamped down and started purges after Lenin's death. My Russian studies professor said that Ford employees were stranded in Russia after that happened.
Not exactly. The reason behind the NEP ( NEW Economic Policy) that replaced the War Communism ( military Communism) were primarily internal ones and didn't have anything to do with "Ford investment."

War communism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

I think that earlier bolsheviks were simply of more flexible mind than younger generation that came to power already during Stalin's times.
Now as far as Americans go - there were plenty of them working in the Soviet Union during Stalin's rule; same goes to cooperation with Ford - those were already Stalin's times.
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:32 AM
 
18,354 posts, read 15,403,818 times
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Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
Some even used the paranoia to sell paper towels:
That's hilarious, but I guess there is a grain of truth to it; the very existence of the Soviet Union did hold the world capitalism at bay, ( particularly the second part of the last century.)
My observation is such at least, that American society started changing soon after the fall of the Soviet Union.
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:43 AM
 
1,392 posts, read 1,912,056 times
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Communism became a big threat when the Bolsheviks nationalized all properties regardless of foreign or domestic origin. On top of that, the Bolsheviks defaulted on all of its foreign debt and locked out all foreign (and domestic) business activities in Russia/Soviet Union. Obviously, the Western powers did not take kindly to that which is why they intervened in the Russian Civil War. After the Bolsheviks succeeded, the Soviet Union then became a pariah state. The West feared that if communism spread, all the foreign assets they held would be nationalized and that was exactly what happened when communism began to spread after WWII.
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:09 PM
 
18,354 posts, read 15,403,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
Communism became a big threat when the Bolsheviks nationalized all properties regardless of foreign or domestic origin.
While initially that's what it looked like on the surface, one should be careful discussing the understanding ( and approaching) to "private property" in the Soviet Union, particularly of the later days.
This article explains situation quite well;

"The Soviet leaders draw a sharp distinction between owner-ship of capital for private gain, and ownership of various forms of personal property—houses, books, domestic utensils, clothes, furniture, automobiles, and the like—for private use. What a Russian cannot do is accumulate money from his wages, put this money into a private enterprise, even a small shoeshop or stationary store, and then hire people to work for him as an individual. This is strictly forbidden."

http://www.historians.org/projects/g...ssianAlly9.htm

So what has been targeted there - was precisely that; the usage of private property for private gain AND private usage of hired labor - the fundamentals of capitalist economy and philosophy.

Quote:
On top of that, the Bolsheviks defaulted on all of its foreign debt and locked out all foreign (and domestic) business activities in Russia/Soviet Union.
Not just "defaulted" - ( because default might happen in spite of initial desire to pay the debt,) they've bluntnly refused to pay tzarist debt, stating that all those loans ( in particular) that Great Britain provided Russia with, in order to participate in WWI, were basically going against the national interests of the country. In many ways it echoed the sentiment common among the Russian soldiers, who were deserting the fronts of WWI en mass ( even after their initial victory in Brusilov's offensive,) since they couldn't figure out what they were doing in Europe and what they were exactly fighting for. Many of them were just yesterdays' peasants, anxious to return home.

Quote:
Obviously, the Western powers did not take kindly to that which is why they intervened in the Russian Civil War. After the Bolsheviks succeeded, the Soviet Union then became a pariah state. The West feared that if communism spread, all the foreign assets they held would be nationalized and that was exactly what happened when communism began to spread after WWII.
Of course the victory of a new system in Russia worried the ruling elites of the West. It couldn't be any different.
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Old 07-04-2013, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 10,384,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red4ce View Post
From the end of World War 2 until the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and to some extent even today, communism was viewed as the greatest threat to America and the values it stood for. What I would like to know is, when exactly did America's boogeyman switch from nazism/fascism to communism? As in, was there a particular moment or event when the collective American public conscience suddenly feared the Red menace? Was it Sputnik? The detonation of the Soviets' first nuclear bomb? Before WWII even ended? Inquiring minds would like to know.
What values would those be? The common good, or collective, vs the individual. When that mindset infiltrated our gov't, it became an enemy of the people and the Constititution that protects the people. Communism is the abolition of private property, that is unAmerican.
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Old 07-05-2013, 01:31 PM
 
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I guess once the realization set in that they were packing as much nuclear heat as us and may be just as ready and willing to use it.
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Old 07-05-2013, 04:01 PM
Status: "Trump - excepting Jorgensen, the least of multiple evils" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
13,829 posts, read 8,489,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Not exactly. The reason behind the NEP ( NEW Economic Policy) that replaced the War Communism ( military Communism) were primarily internal ones and didn't have anything to do with "Ford investment."


I think that earlier bolsheviks were simply of more flexible mind than younger generation that came to power already during Stalin's times.
Never gonna happen ... for too many people, power is an addictive drug, whether in the hands of a dictator, or just some Korporate idiot trying to suck his/her way tp a higher place in the anthill. Democracy depends, soomer or later, on the ability to look authority in the eye, extend your middle finger, and just say no.

You'll likely pay a price there as well, but I'd rather be an outcast with dignity than a robotic slave.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 07-05-2013 at 04:13 PM..
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