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Old 07-08-2013, 11:17 AM
 
31,371 posts, read 33,623,901 times
Reputation: 14928

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mofford View Post
They mainly went after people whom had the type of job where they could influence people, not ordinary workers with communist leanings.
That is simply untrue. They may not have been brought before the TV lights of a McCarthy hearing but it is estimated that over 10,000 people lost their jobs due to McCarthyism. Particularly hard hit were trade unionist and activist.

"Blacklists and Other Economic Sanctions"--by Ellen Schrecker

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It was not illegal to be a communist back then,
See Alien Registration Act of 1940 (Smith Act) and the Internal Security Act of 1950 (McCairn Acts) under which 10 leading members of the Communist Party USA were indicted and convicted under the acts.

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Separating Americans from UN-Americans.......good old HUAC, I wonder how Snowden would make out back in those days ?. Cohn was going too far when they started the soundbites like "We have found 1000 communists in our government" blah blah. The never found that many.....he was full of schitt and an over zealous prosecutor but did a good job on the Rosenbergs.
I don't have the stomach for this twaddle at the moment, maybe I will revisit later...
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:34 AM
 
31,371 posts, read 33,623,901 times
Reputation: 14928
[quote=erasure;30375286]Stalin didn't feel like he had time for Russia to go through all the necessary cycles in order to "catch up" with them in a "natural way." He was dealing with technologically advanced West with the history of colonization, in the world where the motto "eat or be eaten" prevailed. And if he wanted to get that rapid industrialization, ( which was the key to success and safety in his understanding,) obviously in his eyes the negative consequences of NEP didn't do any good for his far-going plans.[quote]

Lenin and Trotsky's economic policies wouldn't have had any effect on restoring capitalism in the industrial sector which would have remained under state ownership. However, had Stalin stayed with the plan millions of Soviet citizens would have been spared from starvation as the NEP had brought back incentives and along with it higher agricultural productivity.

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If they were as intolerant as Stalin, continuously adhering to his mentality, there would have been no denunciation of Stalin as "brutal dictator" in the fifties.
That isn't what I wrote: "Those followed him into power, while...less brutal, were all students of Stalins intolerance of any opposition to Party dictates."

Quote:
say that there was no "generational divide" among them is to say that there was no difference between Tzarist Russia and Soviet Russia, where those two different generation were raised and educated. But obviously, there was a difference, so no "flaw" in my argument.
I may have been wrong but your post suggested some generational divide within the Party's leadership a point that I disagree with.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Moscow
45 posts, read 66,655 times
Reputation: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Lenin and Trotsky's economic policies wouldn't have had any effect on restoring capitalism in the industrial sector which would have remained under state ownership. However, had Stalin stayed with the plan millions of Soviet citizens would have been spared from starvation as the NEP had brought back incentives and along with it higher agricultural productivity.
Not exactly.
1st, Trotsky didn't have his economic views. He specialized in politics and propaganda, have no deal with economics.
2nd, there was two groups about industrialization after Lenin's death: around Bukharin (Nikolai Bukharin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and around Stalin&Preobrazhensky (Yevgeni Preobrazhensky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Reduce to lower terms, Bukharin defend evolutionary way, based on the consumer industry, Stalin&Preobrazhensky stand for heavy industry, forced way through squeezing of peasant class. When Preobrazhensky saw a squeezing results, he was horrified and went against Stalin.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:29 PM
 
6,504 posts, read 7,284,054 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_k_k View Post
It had been that before the war, as early as the 1910s. Communism/socialism represented a challenge to the U.S. economic power structure, with higher costs of labor, potential strikes, slowdowns and all, and potentially leading (if it did what it said it meant to do) to outright confiscation of enormous wealth. It was only natural that great wealth would demonize anything that wanted a greater share of that wealth, much less threatened to take it all. And the threat wasn't idle--the Socialist Party had a serious presence in some Presidential elections. If big money was scared as hell, one could hardly blame them.

WWII was really more of an interlude where we took a break from Commie-hating because we had another national hate target (plus, that one had the added advantage of being able to hate a whole racial sub-group, so that soothed the American soul). After WWII, of course, we were free to resume the Commie-hating, and we leaned into that with a mighty leaning. Worked out well for two generations.

The real crisis came when the USSR fell and the Warsaw Pact came unglued, and we were stranded without a proper target for national hatred. No one could figure out who we should fear and hate, so we sort of lamely kept hating the Russian remainder of the USSR as an interim measure. We floundered for a decade, not sure what to do, until Islamic terrorism stepped up to give us our new compulsory hate target. Since that threat has pretty much gone dormant, we're now trying to decide who's next. My bet is on China.
I don't think so given many members of our ruling elite make money from Chinese labor. I would say its more of the same, Iran, Syria, New Zealand.
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:48 PM
 
31,371 posts, read 33,623,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene L. View Post
1st, Trotsky didn't have his economic views. He specialized in politics and propaganda, have no deal with economics.
Marxism is a political economy, you can't separate politics from economics. Either way it is facetious to argue that one of the three major Marxist theorist of the 20th century didn't have economic views as even a cursory survey of his bibliography will demonstrate.

The Collected Writings of Leon Trotsky: Trotsky Internet Archive

Leon Trotsky: First 5 Years of the Comintern: Vol.2 (The NEP and the World Revolution - 1)

Leon Trotsky: First 5 Years of the Comintern: Vol.2 (The Economic Situation of Soviet Russia)

Leon Trotsky: Theses on Industry (1923)

Leon Trotsky: The Revolution Betrayed (1936)
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Moscow
45 posts, read 66,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Marxism is a political economy, you can't separate politics from economics.
The marxism isn't the same as a certain marxists (or sort of...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Either way it is facetious to argue that one of the three major Marxist theorist of the 20th century
There is a marxists rating? Oh, those Americans...
In fact, the Trotskyism grew up as anti-Stalinism, as a fight against traitors-bureaucrats. Economic views was completely copied from the Marx (at best) or misquote his. As good propagandist, Trotsky has made a name for himself at West.
It does not prove that Trotsky had his own economic views. Each time he was going with the tide: defended the war communism and the work armies during the civil war, later supported the NEP, and criticized Stalin after expulsion. This does not mean that Trotsky was stupid. He's just interested in others.
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Old 07-09-2013, 01:06 PM
 
31,371 posts, read 33,623,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene L. View Post
Oh, those Americans...

In fact, the Trotskyism grew up as anti-Stalinism, as a fight against traitors-bureaucrats. Economic views was completely copied from the Marx (at best) or misquote his. As good propagandist, Trotsky has made a name for himself at West.
Ah, since following Trotsky during the Stalinist era would get you killed or sent into internal exile, where else but in the west would one find followers of Trotsky?

Regarding rankings, when Trotsky and the Left Opposition were expelled from the Comintern why did communist movements world wide slipt into two competing movements? Who was responsible for the convening of the 4th International? Perhaps if you had been in the West you would not have been blinded by Soviet lenses that only saw what it wished to be seen.

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It does not prove that Trotsky had his own economic views.
Silly me! Why would I think that giving you links to Trotsky's papers on economics that it would conceivably demonstrate that he had economic views. My bad!

We're done here.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Moscow
45 posts, read 66,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Ah, since following Trotsky during the Stalinist era would get you killed or sent into internal exile, where else but in the west would one find followers of Trotsky?
I think Russians read more translations from English than vice versa. This is important if you argue about Soviet history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
why did communist movements world wide slipt into two competing movements?
Two movements: Soviet-controlled and its antithesis (versus Soviet control). It's the dialectics. Trotsky correspond to this antithesis excellently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Why would I think that giving you links to Trotsky's papers on economics
To hide behind it, take ground under pages instead of close reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
it would conceivably demonstrate that he had economic views.
Like wind vane had a direction at any time point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
We're done here.
I think you've been done.

Last edited by Eugene L.; 07-09-2013 at 04:18 PM..
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:41 PM
 
31,371 posts, read 33,623,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene L. View Post
To hide behind it, take ground under pages instead of close reason.
You really should drop the Boris and Natasha syntax, it comes off as being more than a bit fraudulent.

Quote:
I think you've been done.
No, "we're done here" as in we have nothing further to discuss. Aside from the fact that you and erasure have hijacked, diverted the thread to argue the didactic and often Byzantine politics of international communism the fact that you deny what is there in plain sight demonstrates to me a level of intellectual dishonesty that makes any further dialogue a waste of time and energy.

до свидания

Last edited by ovcatto; 07-09-2013 at 05:52 PM..
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:40 PM
 
18,605 posts, read 15,610,370 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene L. View Post
You threw away my word 'generation'.
Of course I did, because your teachers and parents didn't represent the whole generation. They could of have been dumb peasants and then, again, they could be not.

Quote:
If you call graduated people a 'dumb peasants', why can't you be so (instead them)?
Because been "graduated" in Soviet system didn't mean automatically to be intelligent, that's why.
You could have had high education there, and yet to remain brainwashed and programmed as "Homo Soveticus" just in case you've never heard this term.

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You use the vicious circle: a 'dumb peasants' because the crisis, and the crisis came on because a 'dumb peasants' sits in Politburo.
So what can I do if it WAS a vicious circle? The dumb peasants were in charge, and they were hoping to dumb everyone down; intelligentsia was under their thumb, critical thinking was suppressed, and intelligent peasants minding you were kept under their thumb as well.

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Did it occur to you to find more then one difference between situations NEP and post-war? It looks like you only see your idea and ignore the rest.
No, it looks like I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

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The history couldn't show it. It has no subjunctive mood. There is your opinion only.
Err.. no, I don't believe somehow that the importance of Soviet victory in WWII ( where timely industrialization played big role) is my opinion only.

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And are you proud of your ignorance? Paul R. Gregory | Hoover Institution
It's not my "ignorance" hon, it's my lack of interest, particularly when it comes to anything even remotely connected to "Hoover Institute."

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Does anyone hear that I say about 'tzarist Russia'?
Probably not, but this particular phrase of yours "Did you know that the Soviet GDP was growing relatively slowly for industrialization time?" usually points in that direction.

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Well, erasure, haven't you seen the ghosts? Or elves? With your imagination you could...
What imagination? I see them every day, they've asked to say hi to you and that they are anxious to meet you.

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You do not understand the point (like all people of that times).
Oh?

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Industrialization is like to airticket.
Airticket? Try scalping if we are talking about Stalin's times))

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You sit on a plane and it fly up without your help. In fact, you can disturb it (e.g. trying to wave air wings). When the industrialization flight is over, you move yourself again.
Therefore, a linear comparison of countries at different stages of development does not make sense.
What doesn't make sense here - is your writing, but you sure have a lot of pomposity here..

Quote:
Because the new generation of Soviet elite (and other countrymen in part) wanted to own State property.

Enterprise? Yes, enterprise to sell the property for use only, not owned. We have learned to want jeans, chewing gum, VCRs, etc., and we thought that the dollar is really worth 0.6 rouble and it has come to stay...
Ahh... ok, I think I see what you are trying to say here.
I was not talking about the "State property," - in Russia's situation this should have remained in state's hands. I am talking about the light industry, food processing industry, restaurants, bakeries and what's not - that should have been given to private sector long time ago, and then the Soviet economy wouldn't have nose-dived the way it did in the 80ies.

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Their 'broad basis' should provide flexibility of mind, confidence in democracy and enterprise, self-conception as 'inseparable part of the global community - European community in particular' and etc. But didn't provide.

"But the 9/11 hijackers were "fully formed, well-educated adults, [and] true believers," Dr. Post says. This enabled them to live among Americans for years without straying from their original convictions and determination." (Reading into the mind of a terrorist - CSMonitor.com)
Please try to start making sense again.
These people were Arabs, born and raised in different society, with different philosophy.
Think "Chechens" in this case and figure out where and how they differ from Russians, while living with them in the same country.
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