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Old 08-09-2013, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,025 posts, read 20,216,444 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post


Has there ever been a true communist society that wasn't tainted with fascism or totalitarianism?

.
What went wrong in between the theory and the practice of Marxism was the discovery that that coercion is continuously required to produce that "for the good of the collective" mentality. The theory assumed this would be self generating.

The bumper sticker summary would be..."In Government, the Honor System Doesn't Work."
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Old 08-09-2013, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Colorado
3,759 posts, read 3,084,386 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
What went wrong in between the theory and the practice of Marxism was the discovery that that coercion is continuously required to produce that "for the good of the collective" mentality. The theory assumed this would be self generating.

The bumper sticker summary would be..."In Government, the Honor System Doesn't Work."
But coercion doesn't necessarily have to be demanding absolute respect to the authority of the government in order to work "for the good of the collective", like the 20th centuries "communist" societies required.
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Old 08-10-2013, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
I partially agree with your above thesis, but then when one stops and considers the difference today between North and South Korea, then the stay at home and wait for it to fail methodology has some shortcomings exposed.

Also...may we make a distinction between "must fail" when referencing the inability of socialism to produce prosperity, and "must fail" when referencing the inevitability of that non appearing prosperity leading to the overthrow of the socialist government? If the latter, then we are left trying to explain North Korea and Cuba.
But Cuba and North Korea are less than 5% of the potential sample, the other 95+% having ceased to be socialist for whatever reason.

An argument could be made that if the Western economic powers (read: USA) had welcomed Cuba and North Korea into the trading associations of global commerce, their leaders would have had far less incentive/success for their aggressive internal postures, and very well could have gone the way of Vietnam (at worst) when left alone. Cuba and North Korea are examples of states which had nothing to gain by a partial compromise or a relaxation of rigor, they were given an all-or-nothing choice--either disavow socialism completely, or wear the dreaded rogue badge.

If you want to use the North and South Korea comparison, it is only fair to be reminded of the Cuba-Haiti comparison. South Korea, by the way, did not do it by their bootstraps once loosed from the chains of Marxism, but by lavish starter sets and guaranteed export markets provided by the Americans, to be modeled as a Bob Barkeresque showcase with Vanna White clapping for all the world to see..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
What went wrong in between the theory and the practice of Marxism was the discovery that that coercion is continuously required to produce that "for the good of the collective" mentality. The theory assumed this would be self generating.
Coercion was not an essential ingredient in socialism. It is, though, an essential ingredient in trying to rip a society away from the entrenched interests, especially if those entrenched interests remain alive and well on your borders to bark at your heels and bay all night.

Reverse the roles: If socialism had evolved over many centuries as the unchallenged global standard, it might have required coercion to force the public to accept turning over all the wealth which has served them collectively well, to a chosen few intent upon grabbing it and using it according to their whim. Inertia is a powerful force.

Last edited by jtur88; 08-10-2013 at 10:40 AM..
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Old 08-10-2013, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post



Coercion was not an essential ingredient in socialism. It is, though, an essential ingredient in trying to rip a society away from the entrenched interests, especially if those entrenched interests remain alive and well on your borders to bark at your heels and bay all night.
.
That would explain the need for coercion in the first few decades of the Soviet Union, but the application of force continued long after the entrenched interests had been suppressed. Fifty four years after the Cuban revolution people are still having to escape from the state that was supposed to whither away. Sixty four years after Mao's triumph they are still arresting and incarcerating dissidents.

So, no. The failures of socialism go way beyond the start up problems and lingering opposition.
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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I'm not going to perpetuate the thread by saying the same things over and over again, in slightly different ways each time, and you needn't either. I leave it to other users to judge our arguments. Or not, as they wish. If there are any other users.
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Old 08-10-2013, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,025 posts, read 20,216,444 times
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Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I'm not going to perpetuate the thread by saying the same things over and over again, in slightly different ways each time, and you needn't either. I leave it to other users to judge our arguments. Or not, as they wish. If there are any other users.
I can not recall any post from you which explains why the coercion continued well past the era where dissidents from the previous regime could be considered a factor.

Would you wish us to believe that this guy was some leftover Chiang Kai-shek nationalist?

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Old 08-10-2013, 02:25 PM
Status: "Trump - excepting Jorgensen, the least of multiple evils" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
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A little coercion is like a little pregnancy .... or a little malignancy.
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Old 08-10-2013, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,570 posts, read 11,365,162 times
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The individual is sacred- if the rights of the single person are trampled on the whole "collective" degrades and rots. There is no such thing as the common good...there is just the common good of the individual. We are not a swarm of insects.
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Old 08-10-2013, 02:38 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,429 posts, read 10,637,923 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post

Coercion was not an essential ingredient in socialism. It is, though, an essential ingredient in trying to rip a society away from the entrenched interests, especially if those entrenched interests remain alive and well on your borders to bark at your heels and bay all night.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
That would explain the need for coercion in the first few decades of the Soviet Union, but the application of force continued long after the entrenched interests had been suppressed. Fifty four years after the Cuban revolution people are still having to escape from the state that was supposed to whither away. Sixty four years after Mao's triumph they are still arresting and incarcerating dissidents.

So, no. The failures of socialism go way beyond the start up problems and lingering opposition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I'm not going to perpetuate the thread by saying the same things over and over again, in slightly different ways each time, and you needn't either. I leave it to other users to judge our arguments. Or not, as they wish. If there are any other users.
Its rare lol, but there are other users here, from time to time.

Grandstander does raise a good point of the necessity of Communist regimes to keep on using "coercion" to keep the workers from leaving the "workers paradise"!
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Old 08-10-2013, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
35,171 posts, read 22,182,404 times
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There were not that many mistakes made in the cold war, simply because it didn't turn into ww3 which suggests both sides ultimately got it right. Even Vietnam, which on the surface is a failure, in some respects was the exact opposite for the west.

The USSR, who on the surface won Vietnam, was forced to prop up one more communist state that wasn't economically viable.
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