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Old 08-23-2013, 02:27 PM
 
5,586 posts, read 6,352,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda_d View Post
IMO, the way Americans "cared" about "the people around you" for a long time was dangerous to the life, liberty, and happiness of many of their fellow Americans for a long, long time. Was it polite for whites to lynch black Americans for transgressions real or imagined? Was it polite for Jews to barred from many country clubs, private schools, and housing developments? Was it polite for male bosses to importune their female employees? Was it polite for the law and society to pretend that wife-beating and child abuse didn't happen?

Sorry, but formal clothes and surface civility were only facades that masked the hypocracy that permeated American society until late 1960s/early 1970s.
You may be right. However, the poof is in the pudding. We know what mighty power America of past time was. On the other hand, America in the 21st century doesn't look so good. Some minorities you mention, aren't very happy today as well. Just read the forum - about 50% of all posts are complains about racism (or related to racism). We spend 10 times more on welfare and education yet people (in general) are less satisfied then in 1950. In 1960 the tone was very optimistic but today, with all progress we are surrounded by gloom and doom on every side.
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Old 08-23-2013, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,545 posts, read 18,673,187 times
Reputation: 16866
Quote:
Originally Posted by oberon_1 View Post
You may be right. However, the poof is in the pudding. We know what mighty power America of past time was. On the other hand, America in the 21st century doesn't look so good. Some minorities you mention, aren't very happy today as well. Just read the forum - about 50% of all posts are complains about racism (or related to racism). We spend 10 times more on welfare and education yet people (in general) are less satisfied then in 1950. In 1960 the tone was very optimistic but today, with all progress we are surrounded by gloom and doom on every side.
The thing is, acknowledging that bad things exist makes it possible for that to change. Racism is such a hot topic today since it was hidden for such a long time. Maybe its going to take a generation or two, but those who dwell on the old issures will keep them alive and it can't be gotten past. But time is your friend, and generations who don't dwell in how things were will make life better.

Social change doesn't happen fast, and is often a rocky road.

And there are dreams and optimism, just tempered by the reality that there is no quick fix and no instant gratification.

The greatest danger we face now are the changes in the way the world works. In the sixties we were afraid Russia was going to go toe to toe and push the button. Now they are just another authoritarian nation which looks at the bottom economic line. And China was a dangerous, mysterious place, but it was conquered by MacDonalds and its new power and risk are both econimic. Its interesting that the new leaders were children of those who were hauled to the countryside with pesant uprising, and grew up there. But their parents educated them and they chose to make sure idology would not be the god it was under mao.

In this new world, economically speaking, the rules WE understood are different and we have to share and compete and we have encountered a whole new problem. What *do* you do when the bulk of jobs don't pay much and the better paying have the option of the cream of the crop when you hadn't had to deal with the social implications of that? A lot of similarities to when the pesants were driven from the estates in the beginning of the commercial age and you had a lot of 'excess people'. Can't solve it the way they did.

That's going to be our challenge in the coming decades, not resurecting issues of the past.
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:57 AM
 
Location: New York City
4,037 posts, read 9,318,297 times
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Some African-Americans have maintained a tradition of dressing up. If you go to a predominantly black church you still women in hats—something that would unusual even in very affluent or conservative white churches.
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
2,742 posts, read 3,610,632 times
Reputation: 7676
DewDropInn:

Yes, the North Wall was a private memorial project, funded by Canadian Viet Nam vets, to honour their fallen comrades, who came from Canada.

Link to The North Wall website

The North Wall

And Yes, if a Canadian, serving in the US military, in Viet Nam, was killed in action, their name will be on the wall, in D.C.

Here is the link for the CBC news story about Canada honouring the 61 Canadians who have won the Medal of Honor, including Peter Lemon, from Toronto, who won the Medal of Honor in Viet Nam.

Canada honours winners of top U.S. medal - Canada - CBC News

During the US civil war, about 50,000 men from what was then known as British North America ( Canada became a nation in 1867 ) went to the US and volunteered, mostly for the Union side. Why would they do that ? Simple. At that time, if a American was "drafted " they could BUY a man to serve on their behalf, for a sum of money. It was a way to avoid service.

Ever hear the term "He bought the farm " meaning a man was killed in action ? That comes from the bounty that usually amounted to $500, which in that time would buy a 100 acre farm, in Canada. Some served out of a sense that it was the right thing to do, but money also played a part in it.

In some cases, an individual American could "sign up " with a State unit, get the bounty for signing , and skip town, and later sign up somewhere else, and get the bounty and leave.

In the middle years of the war, the Union was desperate for trained soldiers, so they sent agents to Canada , to try to bribe members of the British army, stationed in Canada, to desert, and go to America. Bribes ran up to a thousand dollars, for a trained artillery Sgt. And, Yes some did do that, under a assumed name and place of birth.

Southern agents, operating out of Quebec, raided banks in Vermont, and sent the money to Richmond, to support their cause. After the end of the Civil War, a number of southern Generals lived in Canada in a sort of self imposed exile.

During the First World War, about 19,000 US citizens came to Canada, and volunteered with the Canadian Army, to fight in France. We know this because every one of their service records are now digitized and available on line. Our Army in that war numbered 619,00 men.

During the Second World War, about 23,000 US citizens came to Canada and volunteered to join our military. Many felt that this was "the thing to do," as they saw Hitler and his henchmen as a world threat. A further encouragement was that we didn't discriminate, and as a result, American blacks could serve in any branch, and did, with honor. As a matter of fact, a black Lawyer, from Georgia, started as a Private and ended the war commanding the North Nova Scotia Highlanders, as their Colonel. That unit fought in Sicily, Italy, France, Belgium, Holland, and Germany.

Cheers Jim b.

Toronto.
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:18 AM
 
10,681 posts, read 10,342,969 times
Reputation: 34260
Quote:
The thing is, acknowledging that bad things exist makes it possible for that to change. Racism is such a hot topic today since it was hidden for such a long time. Maybe its going to take a generation or two, but those who dwell on the old issures will keep them alive and it can't be gotten past. But time is your friend, and generations who don't dwell in how things were will make life better.
At age 53, I am old enough to have a certain perspective on life. Race was the hot issue in the sixties and perhaps even the seventies. Despite all the whining about this era I hear from some today, much good was done during this era and a foundation was laid for eliminating or at least greatly alleviating racial problems.

Today, though talk about racism almost seems "quaint" to me. America has been forced to deal with other issues. The economy has you describe below has come to the forefront. The major barrier in this country is no longer a color line. Its an economic line. More and more people are ending up on the wrong side of it too.

Quote:
Social change doesn't happen fast, and is often a rocky road.
This is correct and I would say there is a certain pattern to change that goes like this:

1. Its slow and its hard to get and there is much inertia in the system that prevents it from occurring more quickly.

2. Once change does occur though, we seldom go back to where we were.

3. Over a long period of time, things gradually get better.


Quote:
The greatest danger we face now are the changes in the way the world works. In the sixties we were afraid Russia was going to go toe to toe and push the button. Now they are just another authoritarian nation which looks at the bottom economic line. And China was a dangerous, mysterious place, but it was conquered by MacDonalds and its new power and risk are both econimic. Its interesting that the new leaders were children of those who were hauled to the countryside with pesant uprising, and grew up there. But their parents educated them and they chose to make sure idology would not be the god it was under mao.

In this new world, economically speaking, the rules WE understood are different and we have to share and compete and we have encountered a whole new problem. What *do* you do when the bulk of jobs don't pay much and the better paying have the option of the cream of the crop when you hadn't had to deal with the social implications of that? A lot of similarities to when the pesants were driven from the estates in the beginning of the commercial age and you had a lot of 'excess people'. Can't solve it the way they did.

That's going to be our challenge in the coming decades, not resurecting issues of the past.
America, right now, still remains the predominant nation in the world from both an economic and military point of view. However, it would be wise for all of us to consider the fact that no nation or empire has remained on top forever. Greece had its time. Rome had its epoch. Spain once dominated the world. Great Britain was once the preeminent power in this world. America has been considered the dominate power since the beginning of the Twentieth Century (Or the "American Century").

Paul Kennedy wrote the "The Rise and Fall of Great Nations". He basically argues that the preeminent nation in the world inevitably faces a conflict in that the maintenance of the military power that makes it the most powerful country in the world requires resources which are used in other countries to build up economic power. So, over time, the greatest nation will have a weaker economy relative to other countries who are not spending as much of their GDP on the military.

The US currently spends more on its military than the next ten most powerful nations in the world combined. The loss of our economic power manifests itself in many ways. We have a worse educational system, poorer social safety net, and less comprehensive health care system (even if it is more expensive) than most of the other developed countries in the world. The decline of our country as a great power is slow, but constant.

This will have many ramifications for our children and grandchildren that we have not even imagined.
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Coastal Georgia
40,250 posts, read 49,764,345 times
Reputation: 68845
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpk-nyc View Post
Some African-Americans have maintained a tradition of dressing up. If you go to a predominantly black church you still women in hats—something that would unusual even in very affluent or conservative white churches.
One thing that struck me the first time I went to the Caribbean (in the 80s) was that the Caribbean women who worked in the shops wore stockings, high heels and pretty dresses. They dressed with dignity despite the high temperatures. I was glad my son got exposed to this.

I am in my 60s now, and through my teen years, women still dressed up in white gloves and high heels to go shopping. Many wore hats to church. My grandmothers never went a day without a girdle and stockings. I never saw either of them in pants.

I think its funny that in the old movies, even the bank robbers wore suits and hats.
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