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England and USA were thoroughly dominated by Germany in WW2.
That would explain the steady retreat of German forces in every theater of the war from North Africa and Italy to the ultimate invasion of western Europe and the allied march across France, Belgium and eventually Germany itself.
That would explain the steady retreat of German forces in every theater of the war from North Africa and Italy to the ultimate invasion of western Europe and the allied march across France, Belgium and eventually Germany itself.
Allied defeat at Dunkirk is a "reinvention"? This files under the Nazis bombed Pearl Harbor.
There is no point of debating with you. Yes the USA defeated the Nazis and liberated the Jews and saved the globe from Alien invasion.
In hindsight it seems stupid, but looking back not so much. The U.S., British, and Russian armies were comparatively weak to the German Army at the time in 1939-1941. The Germans were confident they could score quick land battle victories against the European powers and the Russians before any large scale U.S. or British invasions could ever take place.
Defeating the British was never really that important or even a reality. The British were protected by an island surrounded on 4 sides by water, the world's most powerful navy, and possibly the world's best air force. The German Navy was no match for the British Navy, and a large scale German invasion of England was never really feasible. Once the British Army was expelled from the continent at Dunkirk, the Brits were no longer much of a threat to invade Continental Europe. They were limited to fighting proxy battles in other theatres and were more of a threat to the Italians than the Germans.
The Germans did not really want war with the U.S., but were compelled to declare war by the Axis Pact in response to the U.S. declaration of war on Japan. In 1939 to 1941, the U.S. had a small, weak army and was bogged down economically in a Great Depression. We were not prepared for a major war. Our Navy was strong, but was countered by German U-boats. By the time of Pearl Harbor in December 1941, the Axis had conquered all of Europe and the threat of a large scale U.S./Allied invasion was virtually non-existent.
Why did the Japanese attack the U.S.? Simple. Because of oil. The U.S. shut off the valve and froze all Japanese assets. This move essentially forced the Japanese to either give up their ambitions in China and East Asia, or to attack the U.S. The Japanese chose the latter. Just like the Germans, the Japanese thought it would take the U.S. years to build up a strong enough army to sail all the way to Japan and fight them. The Japs thought that a massive victory at Pearl Harbor would destroy the U.S. Pacific fleet, and that the Japanese Navy would have free roam on the Pacific without U.S. interference.
Attacking the U.S.S.R. was a primary goal of Hitler all along. Hitler wanted to conquer all of Eastern Europe and Western Russia to create living space for the German people as he outlined in his book Mein Kampf. So to not attack the U.S.S.R. would have defeated the entire purpose of the war. The U.S.S.R. was technologically inferior to the Germans and Stalin had just undergone a massive purge of his best officers. The Soviet Red Army was in a weak state. The thought was that the Germans could quickly defeat the Soviets by capturing Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad and cause internal strife. Hitler thought that these quick victories would cause a rapid collapse of the Soviet regime like a house of cards.
The entire German strategy relied in quick, lightning fast victories to catch the opponent off guard and overwhelm them. When a quick victory was not achieved against the Soviets, the Germans essentially lost the entire war. Because the Russians only grew stronger over time and the Germans grew weaker. The Russians could replace their troop losses and the Germans could not. The Germans were not capable of winning a protracted war against the Soviets.
This post is spot on.
But ultimately Germany did not have enough man power without the cooperation of it's neighbors. He should have lowered his demands and gotten nations like Poland on board with him. In that scenario he has enough to defeat but also uphold his control over the entire region.
England and USA were thoroughly dominated by Germany in WW2.
Hmm, how do figure that? Only during the early years of the war, when the Allies were relatively unprepared and inexperienced, were there any major defeats. Battle of France, the Atlantic campaign, Singapore, Kesserine Pass, etc.
After that, however, the Germans were steadily pushed back to Berlin. I think it was Irwin Rommel who said about American soldiers - he'd never seen soldiers who fought so poorly in their first battle, but who fought so well in their second.
The Germans did not really want war with the U.S., but were compelled to declare war by the Axis Pact in response to the U.S. declaration of war on Japan.
I completely agree with your post aside from the part quoted above.
Germany was not compelled to declare war on the US as America was not the aggressor. The Tripartite Pact only required members to declare war on aggressor nations - i.e. if America had attacked Japan first. Clearly that wasn't the case. It should be considered that Japan would have been compelled to declare war on the Soviets if the Tripartite Pact required military aid in ANY conflict. I don't think any government would sign an unconditional mutual aid treaty knowing that their allies could drag them into an unwanted war.
I personally feel that Hitler opted for war with the US in the hopes that Japan would return the favor and declare war against the Soviets. I know there isn't a lot of proof of this, but historians have always been baffled about Hitler's unnecessary war against America. I just feel that prodding Japan into acting against the Soviets is the most logical answer -- assuming Hitler was thinking logically.
However, Japan had been trounced twice by the Soviets - led by Zhukov - during the 30's and wanted no part in another fight with a nation they feared. Thus Hitler was hung out to dry by the Japanese, and once it was known that Japan wouldn't attack Russia, Stalin moved most of his troops out of that region and sent them off to fight the Wehrmacht. It were these troops that reinforced Stalingrad and changed the course of the war. In that sense, Japan's inaction in bolstering her allies was as responsible for Germany's defeat as was Soviet manpower, British tenacity, and American resources.
British were defeated and spared by Hitler at the battle of Dunkirk. Further fueling that Hitler never intended to control Britain
USA military had little effect on the European theater. Their ability to supply Allies with resources while playing baseball and relaxing back at home, did make a large difference though.
England and USA were thoroughly dominated by Germany in WW2.
I personally feel that Hitler opted for war with the US in the hopes that Japan would return the favor and declare war against the Soviets. I know there isn't a lot of proof of this, but historians have always been baffled about Hitler's unnecessary war against America. I just feel that prodding Japan into acting against the Soviets is the most logical answer -- assuming Hitler was thinking logically.
Nice post, but the debate reminds me of the argument over the existence of god. Theist argue that in the absence of evidence god must have done it, while atheist just leave it to, "we don't know." But if I was going to make a guess given that the Japanese at every turn rebuked Hitler's entreaties to join him in his war with the Russians, before and after the invasion of the Soviet Union, I have to put my money on pure ego.
A) Demanding too much from Poland and not getting them on his side. Thus forcing the Wests attention
B) Going West and sidetracking his original plan of controlling the USSR. Without Russian resources, he would not have held onto Western Europe anyway. It was pointless.
A) Hitler's demand for Poland was essentially a ceding of Polish national sovereignty to Germany. It wasn't about corridors and free cities, it was about Poland being absorbed into the Reich. You can't pretend it was an "oh, please be my ally" situation he ruined with demanding Danzig.
B) He had to go west once the west declared war.
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Originally Posted by IceTeaDrinker2013
British were defeated and spared by Hitler at the battle of Dunkirk. Further fueling that Hitler never intended to control Britain
There are only a few types that express the opinion that Hitler "spared" the British at Dunkirk...which type would you be?
There was no sparing. The "halt order" was issued by von Rundstedt at the request of his armored commanders who were down to 50% effective strength. The order was rubber stamped by Hitler under the belief that the Luftwaffe could finish the British off and prevent them from escaping. Believe it or not, German forces were pretty exhausted after two weeks of constatnt advanving and fighting in France. The halt order was done to give the Wehrmacht time to regroup before the push on Paris. It's also not as if the Germans stopped attacking the British pocket and the soldiers at Dunkirk were under constant German assault and bombardment. It's not like the Germans could have really brought more troops to bear anyway on the pocket given the terrain and other needs. If you read the chatter in the High Command and with Hitler at the time, everyone fully expected the entire BEF to be eliminated.
As for Britain, Hitler certainly wanted to control Britain, but he didn't set out to conquer it. However, once the British joined the war, he certainly decided to pursue such a course and only abandoned it when his invasion plans proved impossible to carry out.
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USA military had little effect on the European theater. Their ability to supply Allies with resources while playing baseball and relaxing back at home, did make a large difference though.
Was the US a "decisive" military force in Europe? No. Did they have "little effect" on the course of the war? No. The US played an important role in the war and while the defeat of Nazi Germany had been made inevitable by the actions of the Soviets, the US and Britain played a very important role in hastening the end of the war.
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England and USA were thoroughly dominated by Germany in WW2.
What evidence do you have to support such a strong statement?
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Originally Posted by IceTeaDrinker2013
This post is spot on.
Not entirely. Germany was under zero obligation to declare war on the US. The US Navy was not "countered" by Germany's u-boat force, but that force certainly represented a large threat to convoys, which required extensive naval resources to protect. Japan only wanted the resources, but was afraid of what the US would do with the Phillipines as a base. The Phillipines sat astride the Japanese shipping lanes. The decision to go to war with the US was about siezing the Phillipines. Pearl Harbor was an addendum to the overall plan because the carriers weren't really needed to carry out the primary attacks. The point of Pearl Harbor was to damage the US fleet and delay a US response so Japan could secure an island perimeter and wait behind it for the decisive battle they wanted to have at sea.
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But ultimately Germany did not have enough man power without the cooperation of it's neighbors. He should have lowered his demands and gotten nations like Poland on board with him. In that scenario he has enough to defeat but also uphold his control over the entire region.
There was no way Poland was going to move into Germany's sphere as doing so meant losing their sovereignty. Even assuming everyone cooperated, how much manpower do you think it would have actually added? Not enough to make a massive difference on the Eastern Front. What mattered were the panzer formations and once those were worn down and the fall rains had hampered supplies, the German advance was finished. Having a couple hundred thousand Poles along for the ride, wouldn't have changed that.
A) Hitler's demand for Poland was essentially a ceding of Polish national sovereignty to Germany. It wasn't about corridors and free cities, it was about Poland being absorbed into the Reich. You can't pretend it was an "oh, please be my ally" situation he ruined with demanding Danzig.
One key issue seems to have been lost in this "Poland should have joined with Hitler" argument, namely Poles, in Hitler's eyes, were no more worth of existence than Jews, Roma, or any other non-Aryan people. 1.5 million NON-JEWISH Poles were murdered during the Nazi occupation and 1.5 million were removed from Poland to work in Nazi slave labor camps. So any argument that Poland could have had some permanent peace with Hitler is risible at best or just totally delusional.
In August of 1939 Hitler stated:
"I have issued the command — and I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad — that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formations in readiness — for the present only in the East — with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"
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