Would slavery have ended without the Civil War? (Britain, 1920s, invention)
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That's a strange economic postulate. I can see an argument that the prohibition on the importation of slaves would limit competition and as a result price, but there was more than an adequate supply to meet a supply that was in continuous growth up to the outbreak of the Civil War. Now if you could argue that Slave owners and their political allies set price then you might have some kind of argument but that isn't the case. As for the Fugitive slave act... would you argue that the apprehension of car thieves artificially increases the price of automobiles? I think not. If anything, slavery set artificially depressed wages across the south for both black and white workers. Which is interesting considering the argument that northern wage workers were worse off that slaves.
As Genovese wisely points out, slavery was both an economic and social system with both reenforcing the other. As for slavery allowing plantation owners to maintain their lifestyle when exactly prior to the civil war was the production of rice, sugar cane and cotton unprofitable? It wasn't called King Cotton because it wasn't a profitable enterprise.
A better example would be suppose local merchants passed a law that forbid driving your car outside the county it was registered in?
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...was-king/?_r=0 "Increased cotton production, not optimum efficiency or profit, became an obsession. A Northern traveler in 1834 noticed this singular goal: “To sell cotton in order to buy negroes – to make more cotton to buy more negroes, ‘ad infinitum.’” Today, we call this leverage. Although risky, cotton’s revenue stream and collateral made credit available, which in turn facilitated more production. During the antebellum period, financing utilized tragic human collateral to expand a horrific institution."
There is nothing wrong with being a conservative defending states rights in theory. The problem arises when we examine what the rights(sic) are that conservatives are defending when they claim states rights. The reality and not the theory is that right wing conservatives have used the states rights argument to keep millions of African Americans first in chattel bondage, then in a status of second class citizenship and now to obscure and falsify the history of both. I hasten to add that there is an uncanny relationship between Holocaust deniers, unrepentant white supremacist, and neo-confederate revisionist in general and on this forum in particular which from my perspective can not be allowed free and unchallenged reign in public discourse.
As for this "big government" liberal, the simple fact is that without a strong federal government slavery would not have been abolished in 1865, nor would the second class citizenship of millions of African Americans ended 100 years later. Those are undeniable facts so it is offensive to this liberal to read attempts by conservative revisionist to denigrate those historical facts. So what is wrong, falsifying history is wrong and I won't be a party to it.
That's your opinion........I find it funny that a liberal like you accuse the conservative movement of keeping millions of African Americans in chattel bondage when in my view and that of many it has been the liberal policies that have kept the chains mentally and morally of millions of black men stuck in poverty and depended on failed liberal policies.
You are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts, sir.
Slavery did exist in the north, much to the disbelief of many. The reason it did not thrive had nothing to do with morality. The north simply didn't offer a climate suitable to the practice. Plantation style farming, complete with slaves, was more suitable and lucrative in much of the south.
I know some of the northern states once had slavery, Andy. But it never existed in the Old Northwest (Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota) it was prohibited by the Northwest Ordinance of 1787.
is not like those African slaves were living the dream back in Africa and the U.S. put an end to that....LOL
Life expectancy and quality of life for any African in their continent were very short and very poor. If disease or starvation didn't kill them for sure the infighting and ethnic cleansing and slavery between the tribes would.
I always told my African-American friends of mine at college who complained about the U.S. and slavery all the time and that we have to pay them restoration slavery payments that if they want we can give them a 1 way ticket back to Africa with some money in their pocket but they have to renounce their U.S. CITIZENSHIP and none of them took the offer....LMAO! .........they were like "Wait a minute, you don't have to go that extreme, Mike, we just want some payments".........I'm like stop smoking weed and get a job.......LOL
This has to be one the most IGNORANT posts I have ever read... You're making it like Black People were so happy they were FORCEFULLY brought to America. You cant send someone back to somewhere they have never been The Africans were living just fine in their villages, if they weren't they would never have been seen as desirable slaves to Europeans. Africa did not become the poor disease ridden continent until Africans were forced to adopt European forms of civilization, instead of the cultural traditions of the Africans had maintained for so many years. I also doubt if you had Black Friends, How many Black people actually complain about slavery?! Afterall, its been over a full 50 years... I'm just bewildered by the people who try and sugarcoat slavery as a great thing, and slaves should have been grateful. Sure, if you spend you whole life in misery in fields a few nice things that massa has done will seem nice. Just remind me of the racist bigots who tried to silence black right after slavery.
You are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts, sir.
An honest man would attribute that statement to the guy who originally made it. I don't remember who the guy was, you should.
I thinks Blacks have been held back by conservative businessmen who shipped millions of good paying blue collar jobs to low wage countries just as Blacks were positioned to step into them. Unfortunate timing.
No, thanks; I'm "calling you (and the agenda of some of those here ) out".
Good luck with that.
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I grew up on a farm, but outside a medium-sixed industrial community, in the Fifties. Our school's history curriculum dealt with slavery early-on, but as it advanced into junior high and high school, also depicted the Civil War as a struggle between agrarianism and industrialism. The post-WW II"consumerist" craze still had a long way to develop, teachers weren't unionized, and
Boiler plate.
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the difference between outright slavery and "paternalism" {-- be it on a family farm or in a "company town"} wasn't as great.
Are you arguing that the difference between slavery and "paternalism" - whatever that is suppose to mean - wasn't as great or that the difference between the two wasn't great? The as changes the meaning of the sentence is a very substantial way. So in your calling me out I would appreciate a clarification.
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Beginning around 1990 (Ken Burns Civil War photo-essay was an early proponent) a prominent portion of the (pseudo-)Liberal academic community again began to advance the proposition that the Civil War was fought over slavery -- and only slavery,
First, let me say that the idea that the Civil War was essentially a war between northern capitalist and agrarian southerns was a position pushed by the United Daughters of the Confederacy that was later co-opted by Marxist interpretations that emphasized the war as one of class and made a concerted effort to discredit Lincoln from a left perspective. As for Ken Burns, documentary... the only hidden agenda there was returning civil war history to its original roots.
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The zeal and self-righteousness of the most militant abolitionists was downplayed, as was the arrogance of Senators like Massachusetts' Charles Sumner and Pennsylvania's Thaddeus Stevens -- principal architects of the mistakes of Reconstruction.
It really doesn't take long for you folks to reveal your true spots, does it? Thaddeus Stevens. Well if Stevens insistence on the inherent equality, value and worth of African Americans is arrogance, this country then and now could use a heavy dose of it.
As for the "mistakes of Reconstruction" an era that contrary to popular southern leaning opinion only lasted in effect four brief years and if it had been upheld instead of thrown under the bus by the machinations of the Republican Party in 1876, the nation might have been spared the upheaval of the 60's.
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I have no doubt that this argument plays well in NEA-dominated urban classrooms where no voice is likely to be raised in opposition.
So what am I being called out on... the usual conservative boogiemen and women, unions, the NEA, urban schools, and liberals. Not the facts, not the historical evidence, no arguments of substance just a litany of names and organizations that present day conservatives role off their crib sheet.
You if you want to "call me out" you are going to have to come a bit harder than that, a lot hard in fact. So pack a lunch because you are going to be here for a while.
This has to be one the most IGNORANT posts I have ever read... You're making it like Black People were so happy they were FORCEFULLY brought to America. You cant send someone back to somewhere they have never been The Africans were living just fine in their villages, if they weren't they would never have been seen as desirable slaves to Europeans. Africa did not become the poor disease ridden continent until Africans were forced to adopt European forms of civilization, instead of the cultural traditions of the Africans had maintained for so many years. I also doubt if you had Black Friends, How many Black people actually complain about slavery?! Afterall, its been over a full 50 years... I'm just bewildered by the people who try and sugarcoat slavery as a great thing, and slaves should have been grateful. Sure, if you spend you whole life in misery in fields a few nice things that massa has done will seem nice. Just remind me of the racist bigots who tried to silence black right after slavery.
The Africans were living just fine in their villages????.....who is the ignorant here? ...you obvious don't have no idea what was life for most Africans in their country in those times or even now. Im talking about the majority.
there are far worse things than slavery......like extreme poverty and slow death of starvation and disease and wars.
but then again look at the results, We have a Black President, many blacks millionaires and others doing really well in our country, better than any country in the world. Would that been possible if their ancestors would have stayed in Africa?
is the glass half full of half empty?
Do blacks have it better in the U.S. or Africa?..........you think slavery is worse than starvation, disease and ethic cleansing wars?.....please take your high moral superiority b.s. someplace else!
An honest man would attribute that statement to the guy who originally made it. I don't remember who the guy was, you should.
I thinks Blacks have been held back by conservative businessmen who shipped millions of good paying blue collar jobs to low wage countries just as Blacks were positioned to step into them. Unfortunate timing.
what a load of crap. What have the democrats done for the black community?
and outsourcing jobs? who signed NAFTA into law in 1993? Oh yeah the 1st black president, BILL CLINTON with a Democrat Congress, the same guy blacks adore and the same party the black communities votes over and over and get screwed by them,.....who over taxes and over regulates that makes businessmen go overseas to make a profit?
you know what is NAFTA before we continue this conversation, if not then i won't bother with you.
So what am I being called out on... the usual conservative boogiemen and women, unions, the NEA, urban schools, and liberals.
Them damn unions. The only thing worse than an uppity Black is an uppity worker. Why can't they just bow and scrape, hat in hand, and do as their betters instruct? Damn Bolsheviks.
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The Africans were living just fine in their villages, if they weren't they would never have been seen as desirable slaves to Europeans. Africa did not become the poor disease ridden continent until Africans were forced to adopt European forms of civilization, instead of the cultural traditions of the Africans had maintained for so many years. I also doubt if you had Black Friends, How many Black people actually complain about slavery?! Afterall, its been over a full 50 years... I'm just bewildered by the people who try and sugarcoat slavery as a great thing, and slaves should have been grateful. Sure, if you spend you whole life in misery in fields a few nice things that massa has done will seem nice. Just remind me of the racist bigots who tried to silence black right after slavery.
