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I am posting this article because I just want to point out that Germany doesn't really recognize the Herero and Namaqua genocide and Germany's behavior is certainly very different from the way they approach the Holocaust. It appears they have more in common with Russia (who refuses to recognize the Holodomor and the Circassian genocide) Japan (Nanking, Unit 731, and other war crimes in Asia) and Turkey (Armenian/Greek/Assyrian genocide) when it comes to the genocide in Namibia. They also never really gave reparations to the Roma and did not recognize the Holocaust against the Roma until 1982. The whole thing about Germany being an example for the rest of the world when it comes to the Holocaust is pretty much a half-truth since they only behave in that exemplary manner when it comes to Jewish victims while ignoring others. I am just posting this since I am a bit surprised so few people call the Germans out when it comes to this particular genocide.
There is more than one aspect to the massacres in Namibia, as the article points out. The reparations issue is particularly thorny. Unfortunately and tragically, our human race does not have a very good track record with regard to massacres on a large scale (to leave aside for a moment the question of which of those massacres can be properly defined as genocide). How old should an incidence of abuse and killing be before talk of reparations ceases? (I don't have an answer and I don't think there is one). But the question can be raised, and here is one form of it: Suppose there is no one still alive who either participated in the killings or in giving orders for them, and suppose there is no one still alive who either narrowly escaped the killings are who has personal memories of any victims?
So the question can become whether it is justified to punish present-day German taxpayers, none of whom are guilty in connection with Namibia, even though the events which took place there are stomach-turningly vile, disgusting, and inhumane.
One cannot help but think of demands for reparations for slavery as practiced in the United States; those demands fall under the same kind of philosophical problems.
To each her own. I'm not saying this is right! Its not! But the Germans (am part German not too much but I claim it) have a saying which roughly translates to ""The tree which is cut soon forgets, but not the tree never forgets"" So no surprises here!
And? Are you trying to say because of this, Germany doesn't recognize its own "holocaust" during WWII? Because if you are, you are sorely mistaken and way off the mark. Germany and the German people are fully aware of what they and their ancestries did.
I am posting this article because I just want to point out that Germany doesn't really recognize the Herero and Namaqua genocide and Germany's behavior is certainly very different from the way they approach the Holocaust. It appears they have more in common with Russia (who refuses to recognize the Holodomor and the Circassian genocide) Japan (Nanking, Unit 731, and other war crimes in Asia) and Turkey (Armenian/Greek/Assyrian genocide) when it comes to the genocide in Namibia. They also never really gave reparations to the Roma and did not recognize the Holocaust against the Roma until 1982. The whole thing about Germany being an example for the rest of the world when it comes to the Holocaust is pretty much a half-truth since they only behave in that exemplary manner when it comes to Jewish victims while ignoring others. I am just posting this since I am a bit surprised so few people call the Germans out when it comes to this particular genocide.
Armed resistance in the case of what occurred in German SW Africa(might was well add similar incidents in German East Africa) vs. passive roundup and execution in the case of the Holocaust is a telling difference in the two cases described. Should be obvious to anyone who has done some intelligent reading on the subject.
The title of both the thread and the article are misleading. Germany does and has since 1998 unofficially and in 2004 officially recognized what happened in Namibia. Where Germany draws the line is in granting reparations. The stance of the German government is that they already provide a substantial aid package to Namibia, this is "reparations" of sorts. The issue is really one of money more than anything else. Germany even went through the process of finding skulls from Namibia that were in the collection of German universities and returning them to Namibia. There also remains a lot of amiguitiy over the number killed. With the total Herero population ranging from as little as 40,000 to as many as 100,000 with anywhere from 25,000 to 80,000 killed.
As for the comparison to the Holocaust, I think there are several differences that make the two not really comparable:
1. The Namibians engaged in an armed uprising/conflict against the Germans. They fought a war. What was considered genocide was basically the culmination of that war. The Herero were surrounded and their only escape route was into the desert. They went into the desert where they starved to death or died of thirst. The claims that the Germans poisoned the desert wells has never, to my knowledge, been entirely confirmed. This is a very stark contrast to what happened in the Holocaust.
2. The intent was to certainly break the Herero and Nama resistance once and for all. To this end there was a concerted attempt to eliminate them as a culture, but not as a people. The Germans easily had it within their ability to wipe every last Herero and Nama off the face of the planet, but they didn't. Hence, the reason there are still people able to claim reparations. Again, another major contrast to the Holocaust where the end game was total destruction of the targeted groups.
And? Are you trying to say because of this, Germany doesn't recognize its own "holocaust" during WWII? Because if you are, you are sorely mistaken and way off the mark. Germany and the German people are fully aware of what they and their ancestries did.
As someone whom has spent much time in Deutschland over the past decade, I can firmly say you are correct and they are too fully "aware" of it. As it's been hijacked by people seeking political agendas like multiculturalism in europe.
What about the Germans who were expelled and forced to leave their lands in the former territories, east from the Oder- Neiße line. Many thousands of them were tortured and killed on their way. I also saw on ARTE channel, that thousands of children were kept in those territories and were forced to change their names, their family names and everything from Germanic to Slavic. This, of course was planned to boost the slavic population after the war.
All this happened at the end of the War (1945-1948) and such atrocities were eclipsed from the people at that time. So basically no one knew what happened to those Germans. More than 12 million Germans were expelled. This is Europe's biggest population exchange it has ever known in its history. Yes, no doubt why Germany is Europe's most populated country (only after European Russia).
Today, more than 1/4 of Germans I know have their ancestries born and lived in Prussian former territories. Of course, this whole topic is never discussed and Germans cannot reclaim anything (even their lost territories) because of the guilt of Germans for their Holocausts during WW2.
Speaking of Namibian holocausts, it was terrible for sure. But Germans suffered too and no one is recognizing it. Even the bombardments of Dresden and Hamburg.
Well Germans have their saying: "**** happens". This is why, nothing could be done about all this. Except for the Jewish holocaust. Sure, because Jews were lobbyists and there must be an emotional reason to encourage the creation of the State of Israel in Palestine and get the support of all the countries.
What about the Germans who were expelled and forced to leave their lands in the former territories, east from the Oder- Neiße line. Many thousands of them were tortured and killed on their way. I also saw on ARTE channel, that thousands of children were kept in those territories and were forced to change their names, their family names and everything from Germanic to Slavic. This, of course was planned to boost the slavic population after the war.
All this happened at the end of the War (1945-1948) and such atrocities were eclipsed from the people at that time. So basically no one knew what happened to those Germans. More than 12 million Germans were expelled. This is Europe's biggest population exchange it has ever known in its history. Yes, no doubt why Germany is Europe's most populated country (only after European Russia).
Today, more than 1/4 of Germans I know have their ancestries born and lived in Prussian former territories. Of course, this whole topic is never discussed and Germans cannot reclaim anything (even their lost territories) because of the guilt of Germans for their Holocausts during WW2.
Speaking of Namibian holocausts, it was terrible for sure. But Germans suffered too and no one is recognizing it. Even the bombardments of Dresden and Hamburg.
Most people who have even a passing interest in history are aware of the things you are mentioning. Though you did forget the slaughter the Russians unleashed on German civilians in your "poor Germany" speech.
Since you seem incapable of understanding the difference between these actions and the Nazi Holocaust...
The Jews and other targeted groups didn't do anything to the Germans, heck large numbers of them were Germans. They were just painted as undesirable, herded off and tortured, starved and murdered. Jews did not declare war on Germany and never did anything to Germany unless you buy into all of that BS conspiracy theory crap about Jews.
What happened to the Germans was a direct consequence of Germany waging a war of conquest across all of Europe. I'm sure the countless millions of Russians who were slaughtered and had their towns and cities destroyed have the utmost sympathy for those 12 million Germans who were sent back to what was left of Germany. Probably about the same amount that people living on the East End of London have for the people of Hamburg and Dresden. I do just want to point out though that roughly 8 of the 12 million in your expulsion figure are people who chose to flee west to avoid the advancing Soviet army. These people were not forced to go anywhere and most of the deaths occurred during this period. What followed were two phases of expulsions which were far more organized (especially the last one post-Potsdam) and saw almost no casualties.
The "recognizing suffering of Germans" in WW2 thing is analogous to me punching you in the face, you punching me back and then me turning to the crowd and saying "look what he did to me". No one denies what happened or that there was great suffering in Germany after the war, however, you seem to be arguing for sympathy or pity and that is rather undeserved.
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Well Germans have their saying: "**** happens". This is why, nothing could be done about all this. Except for the Jewish holocaust. Sure, because Jews were lobbyists and there must be an emotional reason to encourage the creation of the State of Israel in Palestine and get the support of all the countries.
Oy vey...
If the Jewish "plan" was to use the Holocaust as an excuse for the creation of Israel, then it failed miserably because the Jews basically had to carve Israel out on their own and the British actually resisted their efforts and attempted to block the flood of Jewish refugees to the Mandate.
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