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Old 11-20-2007, 05:07 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
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Imho history tells us something about the past, but there is always something missing, it's up to us to gather all the tiny pieces and build an opinion.

As we all know, World War II was a terrible war which made several countries get involved even if at the beginning they didn't even want to know about it.

This war had to be fought because there were huge threats to freedom around the world, and the USA played an important role on it, however imho this role and the victory should be shared because otherwise it would have been an impossible task.

Please read the following info with attention and reflect on it.

War is a game, it's a game that takes accounts into darkness and causes a great deal of human suffering but it's a game in the end.

War games should be avoided at all costs because of this, but the evil force present in human beings has caused wars since the dawn of history, this is why some times self defense is needed and that is different from wars of agression that are waged just for greed or ambition.

This was the case of the war the American countries had to wage.

War is a game where 2 sides or players have to create an strategy for attack and defense in order to win.

They are both defending and attacking territories, and the opposing army, for the game to be won, the other player has to surrender or be defeated, this will only happen if al their territories are lost, if his resources are depleted or if his army is wiped out or substancially reduced.

Every player has resources to play this game, this resources are the key in it's victory or defeat, which are they?

Raw materials

These are needed to build new units, repair old units and keep the army going feeding the soldiers and fixing the machines.

Workforce

This is a vital resource, because workers are the ones who gather the raw materials and transform those resources into new units, fighting units are needed to defend this workforce, so an army is very important too, but if this army was defeated far away from the homeland, workers could easily build new units with enough time and resources.

Units

Units are the fighting forces or the army, depending on the type of war that is being played different type of units need to be used, in dire times like this new kinds of units have been created to counter the opposing army forces, these units are used either in defense, to protect the territories and the workforce, or in attack to invade the territories of the opposing side and capture or destroy their territories, workforce and resources.

After this brief explanation, it should be clear that even though the USA was the ally responsible of providing most of the Units and waging war in the enemy territories, this victory wouldn't have been possible with the help of other countries in America who supplied the workers and the raw materials to create the units which were vital to win this war.

As previously stated, workers and raw materials are a key component of an army, they are as important as the units, because no army could be created without those 2 elements.

Let's study the vital roles of some american countries who helped in the cause of freedom.

Mexico

Mexico - Forgotten World War II Ally - BY SHEP LENCHEK - IN MEXICO CONNECT

Asked to name the Allies in World War II, very few people would include Mexico in the list. Largely ignored by historians, it is time that Mexico's aid to the U. S. and the Allies is brought to the attention of both Mexicans and the world. Although their participation in actual combat was minimal, those Mexicans who were given the opportunity to show their mettle did so with bravery and elan. Mexicans should be proud of them, the Allies grateful to them. Had Mexico thrown in its lot with the Axis, the consequences might well have changed the entire course of history.

Soon, most of the major problems that had plagued U.S.- Mexican relations for the last 20 years were resolved. Among new issues, the question of how to handle Mexican citizens who chose to join the U.S. Armed Forces was resolved and Mexico became the beneficiary of Lend-lease assistance, thus allowing the country to modernize its Air Force, Army and Navy. The improved climate now permitted U.S. petroleum technology and expertise to again become available below the Rio Grande. In fact, Mexican raw materials fueled over 40% of the U.S. war industries, a fact that historians have chosen to ignore. This in itself was a great contribution to the American and Allied war effort and merits acknowledgment.

Also unrecognized, untold numbers of Mexicans, particularly those with relatives in the U.S., flocked across the border and served in all branches of the U.S. military. How many of them were killed is unknown. For those who chose to become U.S. citizens, citizenship was automatic. However, over the years, many returned to Mexico despite their new citizenship.
Although the role of Mexicans in combat was minimal, the denial of Mexico as a safe harbor for German submarines was of great importance. Mexican oil also helped fuel the U.S. war machine. With over 6 million American men in the armed forces and thousands of women in the factories, Mexican agricultural workers kept the food chain moving and, as we have already noted, Mexican raw materials were vital to the war effort. The supply was secure from submarine attacks and did not tie up warships in convoy duty.
Finally, although they depended on U.S. help to do so, the determination of the Mexican Government to resist the forces that might well have created either a Fascist or Communist Government next door to the U.S., removed the threat of sabotage or across-the-border forays that would, in essence, have necessitated either an American invasion of Mexico or the deployment of large forces to guard its southern border. Either one of these alternatives would have seriously hampered America's march to victory.


We can only hope that the U.S. and the Allies will more publicly acknowledge Mexico's assistance during WW II. The Mexicans who shed their blood in the skies over the Philippines, as well as those who volunteered to fight for freedom under the Stars and Stripes deserve no less.

Canada

Military history of Canada during the Second World War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

t the beginning of the war, Canada was the oldest Dominion in the British Commonwealth. As a nation, it was, for the most part, reluctant to return to war. Nonetheless, Canadians entered the Second World War united with the Mother Country, and from a population of only 11 to 12 million, eventually raised very substantial armed forces. After the long struggle of the Great Depression of the 1930s, the challenges of the Second World War accelerated Canada's ongoing transformation into a modern urban and industrialised nation. Early in the war, Canada's commitment to the British-French forces in Europe was limited to one division. Canada's military deployment reached corps-level strength for the invasions in Italy in 1943, and Normandy in 1944. Over the course of the war, 1.1 million Canadians served in the army, navy, and air force. Of these more than 65,000 gave their lives and another 54,000 were wounded.[4] Countless more of His Majesty's Canadian subjects shared in the suffering and the hardships of war at home and abroad.
The war's impact on Canadian history was considerable, though it was likely not as significant as World War I. The conscription crisis had a major effect on unity between French and English-speaking Canadians, though was not as politically damaging as that of WWI. The war effort strengthened the Canadian economy, led to diversification in manufacturing and enhanced national thanksgiving. Canada's status as a nation was strengthened after 1945.[5]

Industrial war effort

Canada had become one of the world's leading automobile manufacturers in the 1920s, owing to the presence of branch-plants of American automakers in Ontario. In 1938, Canada's automotive industry ranked fourth in the world in the output of passenger car and trucks, even though a large part of its productive capacity remained idle because of the Depression. During the war, this industry was put to good use, building all manner of war materiel, and most particularly wheeled vehicles, of which Canada became the second largest (next to the United States) producer during the war. Canada's output of nearly 800,000 trucks, for instance, exceeded the combined total truck production of Germany, Italy, and Japan. Rivals Ford and General Motors of Canada pooled their engineering design teams to produce a standardised vehicle amenable to mass production, the Canadian Military Pattern (CMP) truck, which served throughout the British Commonwealth. Approximately half of the British Army's transport requirements were supplied from Canadian manufacturers. The British Official History referred to these vehicles as Canada's most important contribution to Allied victory.
In addition, Canada produced its own medium tank, the Ram. Though it was unsuitable for combat employment, many were used for training, and the 1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment used modified Rams as armoured personnel carriers in North-West Europe.[7] Approximately 16,000 aircraft, including Lancaster and Mosquito bombers, were built in Canada. In addition, by the end of 1944, Canadian shipyards had launched naval ships, such as destroyers, frigates, corvettes, and some 345 merchant vessels. But perhaps no Canadian contribution to the Allied war effort was so vital as that made by the metals industries: half of Allied aluminium and ninety percent of Allied nickel was supplied by Canadian sources during the war.
See also: Dominion Communist-Labor Total War Committee

Brazil

EIAL VI2 - Brazil and World War II: The Forgotten Ally.What did you do in the war, Zé Carioca?

World War II had great impact on Brazil. The war effort improved its port facilities, left it with new modem airfields from Belém to Rio de Janeiro, as well as refurbished railroads, stimulated manufacturing, agriculture, and mining, and a burgeoning steel complex. Its army, air force, and navy had gained combat experience and the latest equipment. Its foreign stature had reached new heights and its leaders foresaw an ever greater role in world politics. The war era laid the foundations upon which Brazil's remarkable development in the next half century took place.

In 1945, its then 40,000,000 people had ample reason to be proud of their country's contributions to the Allied victory. Oddly, even though Brazil hosted, at Natal, the largest United States air base outside its own territory, and, at Recife, the U.S. Fourth Fleet; and even though it tied its economy to the American war machine, sent its navy in pursuit of German U-Boats and provided an expeditionary force and a fighter squadron on the Italian front, Brazil in some mysterious fashion has been lumped in popular memory abroad as pro-Nazi. In January 1942, Brazil broke relations with the Axis at the Rio conference, and entered the war officially in August of that year, unfke Argentina, which declared war when Germany was collapsing in late March 1945. Even so, Brazil's image in the United States, and presumably the rest of the world, was muddled.

It is a rare book on the war that mentions the Brazilian bases, the strategically important Natal-Dakar air route, the naval campaign in the South Atlantic, or the Brazilians in Italy. Most war histories do not even have an index entry for Brazil. It is remarkable how many times 1 have been asked by otherwise knowledgeable people: "Didn't a lot of Nazis escape there after the war?" Perhaps the poor geographical knowledge of Americans causes them to confuse one South American country with another. They regularly confuse Brazil and Argentina, and think that Buenos Aires is the Brazilian capital. During a visit to Brazil, President Ronald Reagan stumbled during a speech in Brasilia saying that he was pleased to be in "Bolivia, eh... Bogotá... Brazil." Brazil chose the Allied cause, even as it worked to obtain the greatest benefts from both sides. It was Brazil that ceded bases, harnessed its economy to the "Arsenal of Democracy," and sent its military into combat, while Argentina stood aloof. These facts demand repeated mention because they are what inform Brazilian post-war expectations and foreign policy objectives. Brazil's status during the war was different from that of its neighbors, and its leaders then and since have expected the great powers to understand that. They have often been disappointed when the powers, especially the United States, did not accord proper recognition. Policy makers in foreign capitals, especially Washington, have frequently been puzzled by, what they considered, the Brazilians' pretensions. Their perplexity was perhaps feigned at times, because such recognition was not in harmony with their own policy objectives, but it is likely that often they were, like the world at large, ignorant of the history of Brazil's wartime roles. Fifty years after the conflict's end, it is time that Brazil's war record reach a greater audience.

Conclusions

This post was intended to give a wider vision of the role America (the continent) played in this war and how the contribution of 4 major american countries turned things around, should the victory be shared or not, is up to you to decide.

What are your thoughts?

Peace, Love, Light and Harmony

Last edited by Travelling fella; 11-20-2007 at 05:38 AM..
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Old 11-20-2007, 05:39 AM
 
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I'll speak about Mexico even though you mentioned several countries. It was interesting to see what you posted about the Raw materials, Oil and Agiculture supplies etc...as hadn't any idea that they did this.

However Traveling Fella if Mexico had thrown its lot in with the Axis (as you pondered) it would in my honest opinion been terrible for Mexico as when the war would have ended the United States may have taken more northern land or perhaps created a buffer zone like that of North and South Korea and also its citizens in this country would have been treated as enemies etc.

Also what would the world be like today if Mexico help the Axis win?? You think Hitler thought of the Latins as an equal peoples of the Arians. Or if he didn't invade Mexico himself he or Japan would want the Raw materials and oil that Mexico has and demand payments in these from Mexico. Both the Germans and Japanese thought they were the chosen races so i don't think they would've cared about the Latin Americans per se.

Interesting that in WWI the Kaiser of Germany wanted Mexico to join the Central Powers and declare war on the USA and promised the Mexican President that all former lands would be given back but Mexico did not enter it.

A good thread and thanks for posting about Mexico's contribution as its interesting to pondetr these things.

6/3
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Old 11-20-2007, 06:18 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 11,438,946 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6 FOOT 3 View Post
I'll speak about Mexico even though you mentioned several countries. It was interesting to see what you posted about the Raw materials, Oil and Agiculture supplies etc...as hadn't any idea that they did this.

However Traveling Fella if Mexico had thrown its lot in with the Axis (as you pondered) it would in my honest opinion been terrible for Mexico as when the war would have ended the United States may have taken more northern land or perhaps created a buffer zone like that of North and South Korea and also its citizens in this country would have been treated as enemies etc.

Also what would the world be like today if Mexico help the Axis win?? You think Hitler thought of the Latins as an equal peoples of the Arians. Or if he didn't invade Mexico himself he or Japan would want the Raw materials and oil that Mexico has and demand payments in these from Mexico. Both the Germans and Japanese thought they were the chosen races so i don't think they would've cared about the Latin Americans per se.

Interesting that in WWI the Kaiser of Germany wanted Mexico to join the Central Powers and declare war on the USA and promised the Mexican President that all former lands would be given back but Mexico did not enter it.

A good thread and thanks for posting about Mexico's contribution as its interesting to pondetr these things.

6/3
I thought that it would be interesting to know, that Mexico's loyalty has always been with the USA as you mentioned, during WW I, The Kaiser sent a letter to the Mexican government asking for help, telling the Mexican government that they would supply weapons and aid if we invaded the USA, which the Mexican government refused.

Thank God!

Even though the temptation was present, Mexico was able to resist evil and do the wisest thing, I agree 100% with you on the nasty consequences that Mexico would have to face if he had chosen to side with the forces of racial pride and greed.

I believe in karma, and common sense, in this case my common sense tells me that it would had brought a bad karma to Mexico to side with those who wanted to dominate the entire world thinking their "race" had the divine right to do it, I believe that in the case they were the victors, they would end waging war between themselves on their mad race for supremacy.

The karmic weighting scale was what made our countries win this war, because we were fighting to defend ourselves, and to defend freedom, equality and peace.

It wasn't just a victory of the allies vs the axis but a victory of.

Peace vs War
Kindness vs Hostility
Fairness vs Unfairness
Freedom vs Tyranny
Common sense vs Ignorance
Unity vs Divisions

Imho we should take lessons from those days and be inspired to unite ourselves again, not because of selfish interest or because of a war against other countries, but to unite ourselves on the war of altruism vs selfishness and create a true union, a global union based on peace, love, unity and respect

Peace, Love, Light and Harmony!
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Old 11-20-2007, 12:07 PM
 
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Yeap Hitler had submarines off the East Coast of the USA and i believe a couple were sunk by our navy and i also seen on the History Channel a while back about Hitler's intentions to invade the USA however if he conquered the USSR he would have had plenty of oil from the Caucasus and also would have probably invaded the Middle East next for its oil also but i believe the threat to Mexico would have been Japan as they desperately needed oil and other raw materials (gold, silver, iron ore) of Mexico and with the Panama Canal to the south it would have been easy for them to have access oil rich Gulf had they won the war..

One country i'd have to study is Argentina as after the war they allowed Germans to escape to their country so i'm not sure what relatioship Hitler had with President Peron although i believed he was an admirer of Mussolini of Italy back then.
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Finally escaped The People's Republic of California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6 FOOT 3 View Post
However Traveling Fella if Mexico had thrown its lot in with the Axis (as you pondered) it would in my honest opinion been terrible for Mexico as when the war would have ended the United States may have taken more northern land or perhaps created a buffer zone like that of North and South Korea and also its citizens in this country would have been treated as enemies etc.
6/3
Oh yeah it would have been terrible for them, look at the propaganda from the era, the Japanese were often portrayed as nothing more than rodents to be exterminated. Mexico's armed forces at the time were minamal at best. And you can believe that America would have invaded and had a scorched Earth policy much as we did to the Japanese...
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Old 01-01-2008, 05:48 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
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Actually, in spite of some "musings" on the part of Germany and Japan, there was no real plan to ever invade the America's nor any sort of realistic ability for either country to ever do so (50 or 60 years later, maybe - depending on how events played out (though even that is far-fetched) - but in any kind of short term, there is never any chance of that happening). Neither Hitler nor the Japanese had any ambitions to conquer the world, rather both wanted to build regional empires to put them on a par with nations like Britain and the US.

Though the countries mentioned in the original post did indeed contribute to the victory over the Axis (and are generally overlooked in that regard), the vast majority of the credit for the defeat of Germany actually belongs to the USSR, and the overwhelming credit for the defeat of Japan resides with the US. Don't get me wrong, it WAS a group effort, but those two countries are the ones most responsible for the victories.

Good post though in spotlighting the contributions of the other nations mentioned.

Ken
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Old 01-01-2008, 06:38 PM
 
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the vast majority of the credit for the defeat of Germany actually belongs to the USSR
Firstly give credit to the UK and also the US for constant bombing (b-52's) of the germany's factories which churned out the war materials and weaponry for Germany but with the USSR conquering Germany it actually may have been Hitler himself which led to his demise with the Soviets.

Here his 2 pincer armies of the north and center led by Guderian's Panzer armies destroying every soviet army before it only to be stopped by Hitler and send them away from Moscow and go south to assist the southern wing as the german high command was furious at Hitler for this and by the time they convinced Hitler to return to attack and conquer Moscow they ran out of time as the fridged russian winter set in and froze the german army in its tracks only 15 miles from Moscow and they never recovered after the initial attack in 1941.

Too bad that Britain and France didn't declare war when Germany siezed Checkoslovakia (before poland) as the military high command planned to arrest Hitler but were shocked when the world did nothing to stop him as they surely thought would happen.
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Old 01-01-2008, 07:48 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
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Originally Posted by 6 FOOT 3 View Post
Firstly give credit to the UK and also the US for constant bombing (b-52's) of the germany's factories which churned out the war materials and weaponry for Germany but with the USSR conquering Germany it actually may have been Hitler himself which led to his demise with the Soviets.

Here his 2 pincer armies of the north and center led by Guderian's Panzer armies destroying every soviet army before it only to be stopped by Hitler and send them away from Moscow and go south to assist the southern wing as the german high command was furious at Hitler for this and by the time they convinced Hitler to return to attack and conquer Moscow they ran out of time as the fridged russian winter set in and froze the german army in its tracks only 15 miles from Moscow and they never recovered after the initial attack in 1941.

Too bad that Britain and France didn't declare war when Germany siezed Checkoslovakia (before poland) as the military high command planned to arrest Hitler but were shocked when the world did nothing to stop him as they surely thought would happen.
Absolutely the US and Great Britain (and her colonies) were very important to the victory. However, the Soviet union was CRITICAL. No victory against Germany would have been possibly without the involvement of the USSR - whereas victory by the USSR over Germany (even without US involvement) is very probable (although it certainly would have taken longer).

Hitler of course did make many mistakes in his war against the Soviets, but even had Moscow fallen, it would not have resulted in a German victory. Stalin had two powerful advantages over the Germans - space and population - and one very important ally (the Russian winter). The Soviets could afford to lose both space and population as they had an almost endless supply of both. Loss of Moscow was important because it was a rail center, but even if the Germans had taken it, they were in no position to guarantee they would be able to hold. The Russian reinforcement from the East were there to take it back once the winter snows arrived.

Ken
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:17 PM
 
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So true about the Russians having so many people and manpower. I think the Germans had killed or captured 5 million dead or POW russian troops and yet Stalin had massive armies to counter attack. I wonder if Moscow and Leningrad fell would the Germans dug in. Of course Germany knew Russia had the largest army in the world but i think Hitler was fooled by the Russian High Command purges and also the stalemate with Finland.

Very interesting .......
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Old 01-02-2008, 01:38 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
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Originally Posted by 6 FOOT 3 View Post
So true about the Russians having so many people and manpower. I think the Germans had killed or captured 5 million dead or POW russian troops and yet Stalin had massive armies to counter attack. I wonder if Moscow and Leningrad fell would the Germans dug in. Of course Germany knew Russia had the largest army in the world but i think Hitler was fooled by the Russian High Command purges and also the stalemate with Finland.

Very interesting .......
Yeah, the vast majority of Americans have no clue as to just how important the USSR was in the victory over Germany and perceive it almost as a purely American success. The fact is, American forces made up only about 1/2 of the Allied forces on the Western Front - and even that combined force was dwarfed by what the Soviets fielded against the Germans on the Eastern Front.

Furthermore, with the exception of the Battle of the Bulge (Hitlers' last hope for sucess) we pretty much always faced Germany forces that were inferior (both numerically and qualitatively) to those facing the Soviets. It is no exaggeratation to say that to a large degree we mainly faced beat-up German forces that were often recovering from their ordeals on the Eastern Front. This is not meant to take away any credit from the American and Allied forces fighting in Africa, Italy and Western Europe, but rather a simple reflection of the fact that the Eastern Front was much, much, much larger and the Soviet forces facing the Germans there were so much more plentiful - and Hitler knew the Eastern Front was always the critical battle, so that's where he concentraited his efforts (to no avail).

Regarding the Winter War with Finland - as you mention, Hitler had indeed been lulled into complacency by the Soviets' pathetic performance against a much smaller, and weaker foe (the Finns). Unfortunately for Hitler, Stalin too noticed how poorly his forces performed and was already taking steps to correct the problems. Most of the corrections of course did not really occur though until after Germany attacked - and this only happened after incompetent commander after incompetent commander was sacked and replaced by more aggressive and capable commanders in the field.

It's interesting to note that the Germans were half-way to Moscow in the first two weeks - but that they were never able to quite make it the rest of the way. The combination of nearly limitless space and reinforcements, combined with the Soviet scorched earth tactics (living nothing of value to be captured by the advancing Germans) and the single simple fact that the Soviets used a different gage rail line than the Germans (meaning that these single vulnerable threads of supply would need to be completely rebuilt in order to get fuel, ammo and food up to the advancing German troops) all combined to time after time force the Germans to halt their advance (and thus give the Soviets time to regroup). Dispite victory after victory (capturing whole armies), the further the Germans drove into the USSR, the more delicate and dangerous their situation became.

Before long Soviet troops trapped behind the German lines combined with outraged Soviet civilians (who had seen their family members raped, beaten, and murdered by the Germans) to create what would eventually become huge armies of partisan guerrillas that continuously harrassed and disrupted the German supply lines, and the invaders soon found it was almost impossible to keep those thousands of miles of long, lonely (and critical) rail lines intact behind them. And as mentioned, these sorts of problems only got worse the further the Germans advanced. They simply did not have enough men or equipment to both man the front lines AND guard their incredibly long and delicate supply lines.

And we'll barely mention the enormous production advantages the Soviets had over the Germans. Suffice it to say that even conservative exstimates of Soviet versus German tank production will tell you that the Soviets outproduced the Germans in the critical catagory of armored vehicles by at least 2-1 (and this was in spite of most of the main Soviet cites having been taken by the Germans)

All in all, not a good situation for the Germans at all.
Just as the nature of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor more or less assured their eventual defeat, Hitler's decision to invade the USSR meant that his collapse was virtually certain as well.

Ken
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