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Old 11-17-2013, 06:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Thank you both for your observations and especially for the links. I'm fascinated with this period of time. I've taken in all the sights in London and it's amazing to me a lot of those buildings are still standing. If Walls Could Talk.
Much if not all papers regarding various events from that period, before and after also are locked away in various vaults. Some are open to public viewing, others only for serious researchers and still more not.

For instance the various bills naming both Mary and Elizabeth in their times as *bastards* and removing them from the succession are preserved. In her time this posed a huge problem for Elizabeth I. and is why she never claimed to have inherited the throne as of right (being Henry's daughter), but that king Harry had left her the throne in his will. This is also probably why Elizabeth never mentioned her disgraced and beheaded mother Anne Boleyn after becoming queen. Why bring all that up and give persons even more reasons to fight you claim to the throne. Indeed many actions by Elizabeth were shaped by this including her treatment and subsequent judicial murder of her royal cousin Mary, Queen of Scots.
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Old 11-17-2013, 06:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
I have never been there, and I would love to go.

It was a fascinating time in history, but very bad for women, especially the nobility. You either were set up in an arranged marriage--sometimes when you were a small child and even sent to live with your future husband's family in another land--or you went to the convent. Elizabeth I retained some individuality by never marrying.

With Henry divorcing and beheading wives to get himself a male heir (and of course lack of producing a male heir was thought to be the fault of the women, too), I've thought it would be fun to go back in time and tell him that his only male heir would die young and that his DAUGHTER would end up becoming one of England's longest and most successful monarchs.

I love the end of the movie Anne of the Thousand Days.
No, it was not a great time to be a woman either high or low. Just look at what happened to Catherine Howard (Henry's fifth wife). Never wanting to marry the king, and quite happy being a young teenaged girl having affairs on the side, her family thrusts her into the king's bed with disaster soon to follow. Henry put to death, had tortured and or otherwise took adverse actions against a great many royal or noble women. In short he was a man you didn't tick off if you were male or female, but especially the latter. Anne Boleyn's sharp mouth at first was amusing to the king, but soon it and the owner began to tick him off. Being of a strong nature Anne just couldn't (or wouldn't ) see what was coming. Unlike Catherine of Aragon however she would not beg, grovel or claim undying love for Henry to save her life.
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Old 11-18-2013, 05:33 AM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
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Yes The Tudors had a lot of sex in it. Made me wonder how a queen could carry on like that with servants privy to all the details of their personal lives. But I guess the powers that be had to sex up the show to keep people interested.

When Elizabeth died they showed she had a locket with her mother's portrait in it- Ann Boleyn. Probably fiction?

The casual way in which Henry took so many lives really bothered me and I've always wondered the psychology of having public beheadings and lynchings. And people taking picnics like it is entertainment.

I read that it is thought Henry had some brain damage when he was in a jousting accident and was unconscious for at least 2-3 hours. They said his personality changed and he became extremely moody. So maybe he wasn't naturally so evil after all but it seems like the only way to get rid of your enemies if you were in high station was to have them executed.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:19 PM
 
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Well it certainly wasn't unusual for children of the Royals to be "estranged" from their parents considering every child up to an including Prince Harry and William were for the most part raised by nannies. As for Elizabeth, as I recall she wasn't raised at Court but rather under the care of a series of Governesses.
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Yes The Tudors had a lot of sex in it. Made me wonder how a queen could carry on like that with servants privy to all the details of their personal lives. But I guess the powers that be had to sex up the show to keep people interested.

When Elizabeth died they showed she had a locket with her mother's portrait in it- Ann Boleyn. Probably fiction?
No, Elizabeth really did have a locket with a miniature of her mother in it:

The Elizabeth Files » Elizabeth Locket Ring
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Yes The Tudors had a lot of sex in it. Made me wonder how a queen could carry on like that with servants privy to all the details of their personal lives. But I guess the powers that be had to sex up the show to keep people interested.

When Elizabeth died they showed she had a locket with her mother's portrait in it- Ann Boleyn. Probably fiction?

The casual way in which Henry took so many lives really bothered me and I've always wondered the psychology of having public beheadings and lynchings. And people taking picnics like it is entertainment.

I read that it is thought Henry had some brain damage when he was in a jousting accident and was unconscious for at least 2-3 hours. They said his personality changed and he became extremely moody. So maybe he wasn't naturally so evil after all but it seems like the only way to get rid of your enemies if you were in high station was to have them executed.
Royals and to an extent many nobles had no privacy as you and I would consider it in modern times.

From the time they awoke until they were "put" to bed someone was either in attendance or at least outside a door. This is why everyone knew the charges against Anne Boleyn were trumped up. OTOH Catherine Howard did get up to things as an unmarried girl, and to what extent we may really not know as queen, and persons knew of it. Henry was furious both because he was made a fool of by supposedly marrying a "virginal" female, but that many knew behind his back she had been around. Heads did roll!

OTOH that royals had so little privacy is good for those of us that study this sort of history. Many of those at court or otherwise near such persons kept diaries so there you are.
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PA2UK View Post
No, Elizabeth really did have a locket with a miniature of her mother in it:

The Elizabeth Files » Elizabeth Locket Ring

It must have been sad in a way for Elizabeth to never acknowledge or even speak of her mother in public. Anne Boleyn remained "the king's goggle eyed *****" or "the ****" or other equally nasty names in the minds and on the lips of many long after she was cold in her grave.
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Well it certainly wasn't unusual for children of the Royals to be "estranged" from their parents considering every child up to an including Prince Harry and William were for the most part raised by nannies. As for Elizabeth, as I recall she wasn't raised at Court but rather under the care of a series of Governesses.
Quite right, royal infants and children often had their own households sometimes in the same palace or in an other away from their parents or at least their mothers. The extent of maternal involvement often varied as well. Much depended probably on the man in charge "king", who like any other man at that time had full control over his "property" (wife and children).
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:33 PM
 
24,274 posts, read 16,806,740 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Yes The Tudors had a lot of sex in it. Made me wonder how a queen could carry on like that with servants privy to all the details of their personal lives. But I guess the powers that be had to sex up the show to keep people interested.

When Elizabeth died they showed she had a locket with her mother's portrait in it- Ann Boleyn. Probably fiction?

The casual way in which Henry took so many lives really bothered me and I've always wondered the psychology of having public beheadings and lynchings. And people taking picnics like it is entertainment.

I read that it is thought Henry had some brain damage when he was in a jousting accident and was unconscious for at least 2-3 hours. They said his personality changed and he became extremely moody. So maybe he wasn't naturally so evil after all but it seems like the only way to get rid of your enemies if you were in high station was to have them executed.
Sensibilities were different then, persons took their entertainment where they could find it; lynching and hangings complete with food and booze continued in the South and other parts of the United States well into the 20th century.

Public executions at least in many parts of Europe and the United States ended usually because one or two "botched" events were deemed just too gory. I mean even condemned criminals deserve some dignity.
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,545 posts, read 18,726,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Yes The Tudors had a lot of sex in it. Made me wonder how a queen could carry on like that with servants privy to all the details of their personal lives. But I guess the powers that be had to sex up the show to keep people interested.

When Elizabeth died they showed she had a locket with her mother's portrait in it- Ann Boleyn. Probably fiction?

The casual way in which Henry took so many lives really bothered me and I've always wondered the psychology of having public beheadings and lynchings. And people taking picnics like it is entertainment.

I read that it is thought Henry had some brain damage when he was in a jousting accident and was unconscious for at least 2-3 hours. They said his personality changed and he became extremely moody. So maybe he wasn't naturally so evil after all but it seems like the only way to get rid of your enemies if you were in high station was to have them executed.
I haven't seen the series, but there is a series on PBS called Secrets of... One was about the Tower, which began as a simple Royal estate. People, even Royal ones, lived in tiny spaces. Many rooms did not have doors, just perhaps a curtain. One had to take care, but servants were seen as invisible. They show this one corridor which is dark and narrow, then suddenly opens into a decorated wide hall. That is where the addition was built centuries later. One of the more plain additions was actually rebuilt in modern times when the Tower became an official tourist site to match the period buildings, and the more sparce stone facings.

History is full of times when death was common and executions were a normal part of life. In Henry's time, beheading was a mark of nobility. The ordinary sorts were hung. The notorius had their heads placed on spires as a warning to others. There were also way worse ways to die. In Henry's time, beheading wasn't common, and often done with an axe taking multiple hits. As a kindness, Anne lost her head to a trained french swordsman on one quick stroke.

Go back two hundered years from now and there were public executions. People came to enjoy the day and watch the execution. This was in America and Europe and other places. Our making it hidden and secret is an entirely new invention.

Death was common in times before and people generally did not have the same perception of it as we do now.

Enemies of high station were not necessarily executed. The Tower became a prison as well, and once one went in, it was uncertain if they'd ever leave. They could be starved or beaten or live in comfort if they had the funds. Few were actually released. The living death was seen as worse than simply dying.

And someone of high station was always going to be a danger in their game of power and the one sure way to make sure not was that they die, that you had the power to end their life.

It was a bloodthirsty age, and I'm not sure its right to call Henry 'evil'. He was a man of his time with nearly unlimited power, official or not, and he acted accordingly. He directed his power at more than his wives, that being what sets him apart from others. But he did not know that his daughter Elisabeth was going to prove to be one of the extraordinary women in history when he desperately tried for a son. For a king to fail to produce a male heir were seen as failing in a basic duty which threatened their future legacy.

His most lasting contribution is not that he killed off so many wives, but that he chose to break with the church to do it and the ramifications of that which come down in history still today while all those who died are just dead.
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