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Old 11-17-2013, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
36,505 posts, read 46,867,857 times
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I've just finished watching the BBC The Tudors on netflix which was very good. I know of course it had a lot of dramatic license but I think it pretty much covered the politics at the time.

Frequently Henry was referred to as King of England, Scotland and France and then they would talk about the King of France as a different individual. I think some of France was occupied by England but did that make Henry The King of France? Please explain.

Also Mary's mother Kathryn of Aragon was very badly treated by Henry. Elizabeth's mother Ann Boleyn was beheaded by him yet both young women were at court and seemed to have some kind of relationship with him. Didn't they resent and even hate their father for what he did to their mothers? Was it just accepted that royal father had little to do with upbringing or day to day relationship with his children? I know the children were removed from their mothers at a very early age and sent to live with tutors but did they have much interaction with their fathers at all? and that he could do whatever he wanted to to anybody-including their mothers?

I studied The Tudors in English History in college but it has been many decades since that time and I would like some refresher please.
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Old 11-17-2013, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
I've just finished watching the BBC The Tudors on netflix which was very good. I know of course it had a lot of dramatic license but I think it pretty much covered the politics at the time.

Frequently Henry was referred to as King of England, Scotland and France and then they would talk about the King of France as a different individual. I think some of France was occupied by England but did that make Henry The King of France? Please explain.
I believe this was a throw back to the Hundred Years' War - though England lost the war, they continued to maintain that the monarchs of England were the rightful rulers of France. It was a nominal claim only.

Hundred Years' War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
English claims to the French throne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Henry VIII of England - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Also Mary's mother Kathryn of Aragon was very badly treated by Henry. Elizabeth's mother Ann Boleyn was beheaded by him yet both young women were at court and seemed to have some kind of relationship with him. Didn't they resent and even hate their father for what he did to their mothers?
I believe there is evidence that the girls were somewhat estranged from their father and that one of Henry's later wives (I forget which one) helped him reconcile with them to a certain degree. It's impossible to say just how they felt though since they left no personal accounts of their emotions and other sources are only speculatory.

Quote:
Was it just accepted that royal father had little to do with upbringing or day to day relationship with his children? I know the children were removed from their mothers at a very early age and sent to live with tutors but did they have much interaction with their fathers at all?
I wouldn't say that they had little to do with their children's upbringing - royal parents were expected to oversee their care and especially their education but it was pretty much the norm for them to not spend much quality time with their children. It was a much more formal relationship. While it's true that royal children would sometimes even live in separate households from their parents (though keep in mind that monarchs moved around the country often too), it was not necessarily to live with their tutors - it was more like their tutors lived with them.

Quote:
and that he could do whatever he wanted to to anybody-including their mothers?
Yes and no - Henry could not just say "Off with her head because I wish it." He needed to prove Anne Boleyn committed treason and while most historians believe the charges against her were fabricated, Henry did accomplish that. He had the power to manipulate the situation and falsely charge and condemn her with treason.
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Old 11-17-2013, 10:21 AM
 
24,128 posts, read 16,699,076 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
I've just finished watching the BBC The Tudors on netflix which was very good. I know of course it had a lot of dramatic license but I think it pretty much covered the politics at the time.

Frequently Henry was referred to as King of England, Scotland and France and then they would talk about the King of France as a different individual. I think some of France was occupied by England but did that make Henry The King of France? Please explain.

Also Mary's mother Kathryn of Aragon was very badly treated by Henry. Elizabeth's mother Ann Boleyn was beheaded by him yet both young women were at court and seemed to have some kind of relationship with him. Didn't they resent and even hate their father for what he did to their mothers? Was it just accepted that royal father had little to do with upbringing or day to day relationship with his children? I know the children were removed from their mothers at a very early age and sent to live with tutors but did they have much interaction with their fathers at all? and that he could do whatever he wanted to to anybody-including their mothers?

I studied The Tudors in English History in college but it has been many decades since that time and I would like some refresher please.
Depending upon what time period your Tudor's episode covered it could be after Mary and Elizabeth were young women and Henry had reconciled with both. This was in no small part bought about by Henry's third wife Jane Seymour who urged the king to reconcile with both his daughters.

More likely than not Mary bore some hatred towards her father over his treatment of her mother and herself for that matter many years afterwards. However times being what they were both princesses had to make turns and mend. Henry VIII was the King of England and to him everything they had from the clothes on their backs to the food in their bellies depended upon.

Queen Katherine (Parr) also helped soothe Henry towards his daughters.

There is much on the Internet about Mary I, Elizabeth I and their relationship with their father. For instance throughout her long reign on the throne Elizabeth referred to herself as King Harry's daughter, never in public (or private) did she mention Anne Boleyn.

It may seem hard for us today to imagine such family relationships, but things were different then.

As females both Mary and Elizabeth were the unique property of their father just as other girls/women in England at that time. Henry VIII could have locked them away in the Tower or convent, married them off to a prince/man in some distant kingdom or quite literally beat them to death. Having already shown what happens to females (or anyone else for that matter) that angered him, it was probably wiser to stay on his good side.

Of the two "Lady Mary" (as she was called for a period) being the daughter of a Spanish Infanta afforded her "some" protection. Elizabeth OTOH was purely a subject of the king.
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Old 11-17-2013, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
36,505 posts, read 46,867,857 times
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Thank you both for your observations and especially for the links. I'm fascinated with this period of time. I've taken in all the sights in London and it's amazing to me a lot of those buildings are still standing. If Walls Could Talk.
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Old 11-17-2013, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles County, CA
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He didn't come across as very "kind" based on what Harrier has read.
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Old 11-17-2013, 04:31 PM
Status: "Uncomfortably numb" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
64,867 posts, read 61,145,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Thank you both for your observations and especially for the links. I'm fascinated with this period of time. I've taken in all the sights in London and it's amazing to me a lot of those buildings are still standing. If Walls Could Talk.
I have never been there, and I would love to go.

It was a fascinating time in history, but very bad for women, especially the nobility. You either were set up in an arranged marriage--sometimes when you were a small child and even sent to live with your future husband's family in another land--or you went to the convent. Elizabeth I retained some individuality by never marrying.

With Henry divorcing and beheading wives to get himself a male heir (and of course lack of producing a male heir was thought to be the fault of the women, too), I've thought it would be fun to go back in time and tell him that his only male heir would die young and that his DAUGHTER would end up becoming one of England's longest and most successful monarchs.

I love the end of the movie Anne of the Thousand Days.
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Old 11-17-2013, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Nantahala National Forest, NC
27,091 posts, read 7,531,834 times
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Fascinating non-fiction book:

The Six Wives of Henry VIII
(can't remember author!)

Oddly enough, I became interested yrs ago in the King and his court after reading fiction-The Other Boleyn Girl! From there it was all non-fiction from library...still learning...quite compelling era and individuals!
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Old 11-17-2013, 05:33 PM
 
5,548 posts, read 7,106,177 times
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Originally Posted by greatblueheron View Post
Fascinating non-fiction book:

The Six Wives of Henry VIII
(can't remember author!)

Oddly enough, I became interested yrs ago in the King and his court after reading fiction-The Other Boleyn Girl! From there it was all non-fiction from library...still learning...quite compelling era and individuals!
believe Alison Weir was the author of 6 wives.
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Old 11-17-2013, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Nantahala National Forest, NC
27,091 posts, read 7,531,834 times
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Yes! Tx...and she wrote many others of the genre.

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Originally Posted by theoldnorthstate View Post
believe Alison Weir was the author of 6 wives.
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Old 11-17-2013, 06:00 PM
 
24,128 posts, read 16,699,076 times
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Originally Posted by theoldnorthstate View Post
believe Alison Weir was the author of 6 wives.
Also check out "The Wives of Henry VIII" by Antonia Frasier.

Ms. Frasier is one of the leading historians on royalty especially the British and French crowns. She also has written great books on Marie-Antoinette and Mary, Queen of Scots among other, and is a frequent consultant on films and other programs about same.

In general you'll find many modern programs like "the Tudors" tend to sex things up; so reading a good book should fill in some of the blanks and correct historical errors.
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